Mary

[ICTHUS]

Can anyone help me out on this?

[quote name='Me']Firstly, the idea that the Council of Ephesus' definition that Mary is the Theotokos can be dichotomized from Catholic piety is ridiculous - the reason it is a part of Catholic piety is because of Ephesus!! History tells us that when the Council Fathers at Ephesus made this ruling, ecstatically jubilant Christians paraded the bishops through the streets, such was their joy!

The idea that she is Queen Mother is clearly the logical conclusion of the principles that,

a.) In ancient Israel, in a Davidic Kingship, the mother of the King was the Queen.
b.) Mary is the mother of the Ultimate Davidic King, Jesus Christ.

c.) Thus, it follows that Mary is the Queen Mother of the New Israel, by virtue of her motherhood of our glorious King.

The idea that she is the Mother of Christians is plainly obvious from the fact that she is Jesus' mother, and we are children of the Father by virtue of bring brethren of Christ. Why would you deny something so evident from Scripture?[/quote]

[quote name='Donny' date=' my opponent']This is exactly what I mean. This is an overapplication (if that is a word, and I'm using it properly) of Mary being the theotokos. Just because she is Christ's mother in that she bore him does not mean she necessarily takes the office of Queen Mother, for how do we know there is even such an office in the NT kingdom?

Also, we cannot say that Mary is mother of us all, because the Church takes that role. Christ is the Husband, the Church is the Bride, and in this comparison, we can say that we, the children of God, are nurtured by both Christ, and His body, the Church. Mary simply does not factor into this anywhere.

There are two lines of argumentation that I find fatal to the catholic views on mary. First, there is simply no scriptural mention of Mary as the Queen Mother or the mother of all Christians. I realize that this does not absolutely prove it, but to find absolutely no mention of her high status, considering the fact that she was alive at least early in the book of Acts, can definitely cast doubt on your claims.

Second, you are applying the fact that Mary is mother of God farther than scripture allows. Yes, scripture claims that Mary bore Christ, but why does this extend farther than merely physical birthing him and nurturing Him as a small child. Why does this necessarily extend to her position in the New Covenant Kingdom (Queen Mother, Mother of us all).[/quote]

Edited June 12, 2004 by ICTHUS

[phatcatholic]

Jesus assumed her into heaven so as to afford her the "crown of glory" and to fulfill in mary the OT prophecies and parallels of the Queen of the Kingdom

scripturecatholic.com, as always, is abundantly helpful here:

[b]III. Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom[/b]
[b]John 19:26 [/b]- Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

[b]Rev. 12:17 [/b]- this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

[b]John 2:3[/b] - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

[b]John 2:7[/b] - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

[b]Psalm 45:9[/b] - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

[b]1 Kings 2:17, 20 [/b]- in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

[b]1 Kings 2:18 [/b]- in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

[b]1 Kings 2:19 [/b]- in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

[b]1 Kings 15:13 [/b]- the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

[b]2 Chron. 22:10 [/b]- here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

[b]Neh. 2:6[/b] - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.


[b]VI. Mary's Assumption into Heaven[/b]
[b]Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5[/b] - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

[b]2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 [/b]- Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

[b]Psalm 132:8[/b] - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

[b]2 Cor. 12:2[/b] - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

[b]Matt. 27:52-53 [/b]- when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary's assumption into heaven.

[b]1 Thess. 4:17 [/b]- we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

[b]Rev. 12:1[/b] - we see Mary, the "woman," clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

[b]2 Thess. 2:15 [/b]- Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary's bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary's bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.


[b]VII. Mary's Coronation in Heaven[/b]
[b]2 Tim 4:8[/b] - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

[b]James 1:12 [/b]- those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

[b]1 Peter 5:4[/b] - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

[b]Rev. 2:10 [/b]- Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

[b]Rev. 12:1[/b] - Mary, the "woman," is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

[b]Wis. 5:16 [/b]- we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.


all of this OT talk of the Queen of the Kingdom extends to the new Kingdom of heaven b/c we see Mary assumed into heaven for this very purpose. Revelations reveals her as the fulfillment of the OT Queen. She is the great woman crowned w/ 12 starts. she sits beside the King, interceding for the faithful. The Lord holds her in high esteem and acknowledges the prayers of the faithful that the Queen brings before Him. this is how it works both in heaven and on earth (see the wedding at canna, where mary intercedes for the bride and bridegroom, see the words of Simeon that to her "the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

the NT by its very nature fulfills the OT, so there is no reason to believe that this obvious position of the Queen in relation to the King of the OT should be abolished, especially since there are so many striking parallels between them and the NT evidence we have here.

i hope this answers ur question

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[St. Catherine]

Scripture says that Mary is our Mother.

“Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” (Rev 12:17)


We are her "offspring" that is, she is our mother.

The "woman" is refering to Mary because the "women" gave birth to Jesus;

"Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne." (Rev 12:4-5)

Edited June 12, 2004 by St. Catherine

[P3chrmd]

[quote]Also, we cannot say that Mary is mother of us all, because the Church takes that role. Christ is the Husband, the Church is the Bride, and in this comparison, we can say that we, the children of God, are nurtured by both Christ, and His body, the Church. Mary simply does not factor into this anywhere[/quote]


Oh yes she does sweetheart! I mean if others only knew the fullness of Mary and her role...MARY IS THE BRIDE because Mary is the CHURCH! So it makes since...the church is the bride....and Mary represents the church! And her being the queen as stated before...I mean it ALL JUST FITS TOGETHER SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH!!!!!


Revelation 12...By saying the woman represents Mary you are also saying that she represents Isreal and the Church! Because Mary is the perfect daughter of Isreal and the Mother of the Church...THE BRIDE! CHRIST AND MARY! MAKES SINCE FOLKS...WHAT PART DONT PEOPLE SEE!

Everyone who is not catholic or has objections of Mary...READ Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn! Everything fell into place after reading that! NEVER NO MORE will I have ANY more questions about Mary's role or place in the church!

Jesus et Maria, Amos Vos, Salvate Animas

Brandon V.

[ICTHUS]

Would someone like to explain how Mary can be both Christ's Bride and Christ's mother??? *scratches head*

[Aloysius]

why is that important? God promised to re-establish the Davidic Kingdom FOREVER. In the Davidic Kingdom the mother of the King is the Queen. That's a modern government that makes the wife of the king the Queen.

PAX

[ICTHUS]

My opponent originally asked how we know there is such an office in the New Testament Kingdom. I think it is a fair question, and deserves an answer. Any takers?

[Aloysius]

God's PROPHECY

2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14

God promises david's house and throne to be established forever. In david's kingship, the mother was the queen. DAVID'S HOUSE HAS BEEN RE-ESTABLISHED UPON THE EARTH, YO. Jesus Christ is the new Davidic King, His mom is thus the Queen because GOD PROMISED the DAVIDIC KINGDOM!

How far does God go to fulfill His promises? Does He just fulfill it part way? Or does He fulfill every aspect, with the OT archetypes fulfilled in every spot by the NT fulfillments?

PAX

[Archangel]

I've never heard of Mary being referred to as the "bride of Christ". I've always heard of her being the bride of the [b]Holy Spirit[/b].

[Brother Adam]

That's correct. The Church is the bride of Christ. Mary can appropriately play a role as Queen mother and still be a member of the Body of Christ.

Your friend is wrong that it is an "over application". On the other hand, ascribing to Sola Scriptura, he is not allowed to look outside the Sacred Scriptures for Truth. He must completely throw oral teaching, tradition, history, and the Church. I'd say, he is too narrow minded.

[Brother Adam]

Isn't it interesting that it always comes down to authority. Your friend is convinced that because he doesn't see Mary as the mother of God spelled out in the scriptures in a way that allows for corporate theology, it has to be wrong.

[phatcatholic]

icthus,

i too an new to the analogy of mary as the "bride" of Christ, but i suppose there is nothing wrong w/ it. afterall, the Church is the "bride" of Christ, and Mary is the perfect symbol of the Church.

but, she is also his mother.

so, how do we reconcile the two? well, i think its a matter of thinking outside the box. the way our world works, you can never marry your mother. but, when speaking of mystical things, the analogies can only do them justice up to point. the word "bride" is merely used to signify (for us feeble-minded humans) the intimate connectionb between Jesus and His Church. Paul himself says it is a mystery. anyway, mary is not the "bride" of Christ as we understand "bride" on earth, but is instead the "bride" in the sense that she is intimately connected to Jesus Christ.

this new understanding of "bride" then does not contradict the biological way in which Mary is indeed the Mother of Christ as well.

as for rather or not we know that the office of Queen is present in the NT kingdom, i believe i illustrated the affirmative when i provided all that scripture which proves that Mary, in the new kingdom, is the fulfillment of the Queen in the OT. plus, we see mary, in revelation, as a great woman present both body and soul in heaven w/ a crown of 12 jewels upon her head. this, along w/ the verses that support the Assumption, the Queenship and the Coronation all affirm that such an office is present in the new kingdom, and that Mary fills it.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 12 2004, 05:41 PM'] My opponent originally asked how we know there is such an office in the New Testament Kingdom. I think it is a fair question, and deserves an answer. Any takers? [/quote]
Mary having a crown of 12 Stars should be good enough (Rev 12). Add that to the structure of the King and Queens in David's time and with Jesus coming from that line I think it's rather solid.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 12 2004, 08:51 PM'] That's correct. The Church is the bride of Christ. Mary can appropriately play a role as Queen mother and still be a member of the Body of Christ.

Your friend is wrong that it is an "over application". On the other hand, ascribing to Sola Scriptura, he is not allowed to look outside the Sacred Scriptures for Truth. He must completely throw oral teaching, tradition, history, and the Church. I'd say, he is too narrow minded. [/quote]
Actually, Bro Adam, you assume an incorrect definition of Sola Scriptura.

Sola Scriptura is the belief that Scripture alone is our [i]infallible[/i] standard by which all doctrines are to be judged. It does not hold that one cannot look to fallible (i.e. Tradition) for help on how to interpret the Scriptures, but only that these sources cannot contradict Scripture.

[ICTHUS]

Question:

My opponent said this

[quote]Also, we cannot say that Mary is mother of us all, because the Church takes that role.  Christ is the Husband, the Church is the Bride, and in this comparison, we can say that we, the children of God, are nurtured by both Christ, and His body, the Church.  Mary simply does not factor into this anywhere.[/quote]

Any takers?

[Aloysius]

duuuuuuhhh "behold your mother" seems pretty blatant to me.

The Church is the Bride, Christ is the Church's husband. We are Christ's brothers, so does that make us brother-in-law to the church? not at all! that would be pure nonsense! we are children of Mother Church, we are also brothers of Christ by adoption, and so by that adoption we are sons of Mary.

[the lumberjack]

I could swear people here had said that she was the bride of Christ...at least thats what was said when I made reference to the supper of the Lamb in Revelation...

or am I wrong still?

hmmmm...something is fishy in the state of Denial...

I mean Denmark...

or is it Denver?

[theculturewarrior]

I'll take a guess...

Mary is the Bride of the Holy Spirit. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One, therefore Mary is the mother of us all, because if she is the Bride of the Holy Spirit, she is the Mother of God the Son, and the Church is God the Son's Body on earth. As we are Christ's Body, Mary is therefore our mother?

This is just my guess.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 15 2004, 04:54 PM'] I could swear people here had said that she was the bride of Christ...at least thats what was said when I made reference to the supper of the Lamb in Revelation...

or am I wrong still?

hmmmm...something is fishy in the state of Denial...

I mean Denmark...

or is it Denver? [/quote]
what's your point?

[phatcatholic]

[url="http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/marian10.html"][b]MOTHER OF THE CHURCH and OUR SPIRITUAL MOTHER[/b][/url]

[b]Definition[/b]

Mary is the Mother of Jesus, we are His brothers and sisters, so Mary is our Mother as well. Though she did not physically give birth to us, she gave Jesus the Sacred Body of which we have become members (Ephesians 5:29). We are all united to the very same Flesh which Jesus drew from the Virgin, so she is, in a very real sense, our Mother in the order of the Redemption.

[b]How This Teaching Exalts Christ [/b]

It reaffirms the true humanity of Jesus, as well as the fact that we are "one body" with Him.

[b]Biblical Basis [/b]

This teaching is rooted in the New Eve concept (see the first article for the biblical basis of the New Eve). The first Eve was the "mother of the living" (Genesis 3:21); the physical genetrix of all humanity. Even so, the New Eve is the Mother of all redeemed humanity. Mary is the true "Mother of the living", the Mother of all who possess eternal life in Christ, her Son.

We also find biblical basis for this belief in John 19:25-27:[list]
[*]Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
[/list]Mary was not St. John's physical mother, yet the dying Lord tells him "Behold your Mother". St. John represents all Christians here; Jesus is giving the "Woman" - the New Eve - to all Christians as their spiritual Mother.

[b]Early Christian Witness [/b]

In the second century, St. Irenaeus writes:[list]
[*]"The Word will become flesh, and the Son of God the son of man _ the Pure One opening purely that pure womb, which generates men unto God." (Against Heresies, 1.509; 189 AD)
[/list]Mary's womb, the same pure womb which bore Jesus, also "generates men unto God"! Second century Christians clearly recognized that Mary is the spiritual Mother of all who are in Christ. In the third century A.D., the Christian writer Origen indicated that John 19:25-27 relates to Mary's spiritual Motherhood:[list]
[*]"No one can apprehend the meaning of it (John's Gospel) except he have lain on Jesus' breast and received from Jesus Mary to be his mother also....For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother "Woman, behold thy son" and not "Behold you have this son also", then He virtually said to her "Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou dost bear". Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him, if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary "Behold thy son Christ". (Origen, Commentary on John, Bk 1, ch.6)
[/list]Note Origen's allusion to Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Christans share in the very life of Jesus, the Son of Mary!

[b]More Quotes:[/b]
[list]
[*]"True it is...the whole race of man upon earth was born of Eve; but in reality it is from Mary that Life was truly born to the world, so that by giving birth to the Living One, Mary might also become the Mother of all the living." (Epiphanius, Panarion, 78, 18; 374 AD)
[/list][list]
[*]"The Virgin has given birth to the salvation of the world, the Virgin has brought forth the life of all" (or given life to all things). {Ambrose of Milan, Epistle 63, 33; )
[/list][list]
[*]"But plainly (Mary) is, in spirit, Mother of us who are His members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that Head might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is mother of that very Head." (Augustine, On Holy Virginity, 6,6; 401 AD)
[/list]If all the baptized have "put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27), are members of His Body (Ephesians 5:29-31) and if they no longer live, but Christ lives in them, then surely His Mother becomes their Mother as well!

[b]Objections[/b]

[i]The Bible refutes the Catholic teaching is Mary is the Mother of the Church: In Matthew 16:16, Jesus said "I will build My church". [/i][list]
[*]The title Mother of the Church does not mean that Mary somehow founded the Church. It means that, because she is the Mother of Christ Who is the Head of the Church, she is also the spiritual Mother of all the members of His Body. So St. Matthew 16:16 has no bearing on this matter.
[/list][i]In the book of Revelation, Jesus addresses the churches, NOT Mary.[/i][list]
[*]The Apocalypse/Book of Revelation was addressed to the pilgrim Church on earth; Mary was already in Heaven by then.
[/list][i]Mary was not made an Apostle, she was never given a position of authority above other Christians (Acts 1:14; 1 Corinthians 12:13, 27). [/i][list]
[*]She was not made an Apostle because she was a woman; Jesus chose only male Apostles. Besides, she didn't want a position of authority for on earth she was always the humble Handmaid of the Lord; she made herself the least of all. That is why she is so exalted now in heaven; as the Bible says, "The last shall be first...".
[/list][i]Mary is just another member of the church, not the Mother of the Church.[/i][list]
[*]She is indeed a member of the Church, insofar as she is a member of the Body of Christ. In another sense, she is the Mother of the Church, for as the Mother of Christ the Head she is also Mother of all the members of the Church; the Head and Body are one Christ (1 Corinthians 12:12).
[/list][i]But our rebirth is spiritual, and Mary only gave birth to Jesus in the flesh. Jesus does not communicate to us the physical life which He derived from Mary.[/i][list]
[*]This smacks of Gnosticism, an early heresy which denied the Incarnation and hoped for a purely spiritual salvation. The Bible, on the other hand, clearly teaches that our salvation is both physical and spiritual by virtue of Jesus' Incarnation.

Human beings are both physical and spiritual, a body and a soul. Our Lord assumed our human nature - both a human body and a human soul - in order to save us. The Incarnation actually made the Atonement possible; Jesus' physical Blood has redeemed us (Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Heb 9:12, 1 Pet 1:2, 1 Jn 1:7, Rev 5:9), His bodily wounds and sufferings have redeemed us: "By his bruises we are healed" (Is 53:5).

Jesus actually saves us by uniting us to His own Humanity! Thus the Bible says that the redeemed are members of His Body (Ephesians 5:29-32), and that our bodies are members of Christ (I Corinthians 6:15). We are truly united to Jesus' glorified human Body, which is the same exact Body which He drew from Mary, and in which He suffered and died (as He proved by the scars in his hands, feet and side: Luke 24:39-40; John 20:20, 27).

We even bear His resurrection life within our very bodies until the Last Day, when Jesus will finally redeem and glorify our bodies (John 6:54; Rom 8:23 Phil 3:21). Our Redemption is not a purely "spiritual" reality; it most definitely has a physical aspect as well.

The Incarnation is inseparable from the Redemption. We receive life from Christ through His Sacred Humanity, which He received from Mary! So Jesus' Mother is our Mother as well, for He drew from her the same flesh to which we are united in the Body of Christ.
[/list][i]Perhaps, but I still can't see how she could be my mother. [/i][list]
[*]Do you have the same trouble understanding how God could be your Father? I'm sure you know that the Bible says that Jesus is our Brother (Hebrews 2:11), which makes God our Father (Galatians 4:5-6). Well, if Jesus is our Brother and His Father is our Father, then surely His Mother is our Mother as well. Brothers have the same father and mother (unless they are half-brothers, but the Bible never calls us Jesus' half-brothers).

Had Jesus not become Incarnate, we could never have become His brothers and sisters, since we become such by our union with His human nature. But in His Incarnation, Jesus has a Mother, Mary. So Mary must be our Mother too.
[/list][i]If Jesus intended His statement "Behold your mother" to apply to all Christians, that would mean that every Christian would have to take Mary "into his care" as St. John did (vs. 27). [/i][list]
[*]The word "care" in John 19:27 was added in by translators; it does not appear in the original text! The original Greek reads "eis ta idia". "Eis" means "for" or "as"; "ta idia" means "one's own, my own, your own, his own, her own, our own, or their own", depending on the context (this context clearly indicates "his own", meaning "John's own").

So this verse literally says that John took Mary "for his own" or "as his own". This is what Jesus wants us to do as well; not to take Mary "into our care" but to take her "for our own"; to accept her as our Mother in Christ. She is His gift to us, how can we spurn His gift?
[/list][i]The earliest Christians never saw Mary as their Mother. [/i][list]
[*]The apostle John - one of the very earliest Christians - considered her his Mother. We know that Mary lived among the first Christians for some time after Jesus' death. Surely those early converts would have loved the woman who was the Mother of their Savior. And given their tendancy to look upon one another as family (Romans 16:13), they may well have considered Mary their spiritual Mother

Jesus taught that we will have many mothers in the kingdom of God (Mark 10:29-30) and St. Paul counseled Christians to treat all older women in the Church as mothers (I Timothy 5:2). Some Evangelicals look upon a saintly older woman in their congregation as a spiritual mother-figure. Is it so hard to believe that the first Christians might have looked on the Mother of their Lord in the same manner?
[/list][i]Motherhood ceases at death, so Mary cannot be considered the mother of anyone now. She is just a Christian in heaven. [/i][list]
[*]Can you show me a Bible verse which says something to this effect: "She was my mother before she died, but ceased to be my mother at her death?" You cannot, because Scripture says no such thing! The Bible does not support that belief, in fact, it indicates that motherhood and fatherhood transcend death.

Consider Abraham the Patriarch; he is, quite literally, the father of the Jewish people, since he is their physical ancestor. Centuries after his death, Scripture continues to call him the "father" of the Jews; here is a sample:[list]
[*]"And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac" (Joshua 24:3)

"Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him." (Isaiah 51:2)

"The oath which he sware to our father Abraham" (Luke 1:73)

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56)

"The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran." (Acts 7:2)

"That he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." (Romans 4:11-12).

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be." (Romans 4:16-18)
[/list]
All of these passages were written after Abraham died, and the New Testament ones were written after he had entered heaven. Yet all along he is called the father of the Jewish people, as well as the spiritual father of Christians. He did not physically sire Gentile Christians, yet is still called their father!

As for his wife, Sarah, St. Peter wrote the following to Christian women:[list]
[*]"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement" (1 Peter 3:6)
[/list]If Christian women are the daughters of Sarah, then she must be our . . . MOTHER! Not our physical mother (unless one is of Jewish decent), but our spiritual mother, as Abraham is our spiritual father. Yet St. Peter wrote his epistle almost two millenia after Sarah's death.

If the Bible clearly continues to call people in heaven the "father" and "mother" of believers on earth, then these heavenly personages must certainly continue to be our father or mother. If this is true of Abraham and Sarah, it can certainly be true of Mary as well.
[/list][i]By calling Mary "Our Heavenly Mother", don't you make her equal to God our Heavenly Father?[/i][list]
[*]No, for we know that our Heavenly Father is the Eternal, Infinite Creator and that our Heavenly Mother is one of His creatures.
[/list][i]Isn't the Church our Mother (Galatians 4:26)? [/i][list]
[*]Yes, the Church gives birth to us in Baptism and nourishes us in the Sacraments, so she is indeed our spiritual Mother. Catholics traditionally call her "Holy Mother Church". But the Church is a corporate entity, not a human person, and we are used to mothers who are individuals, with whom we have a personal relationship. We obviously cannot have such a relationship with Mother Church, yet we can with the Virgin Mary. She is the Image, Model and pre-eminent member of the Church, so she puts a "human face" on the Church's Motherhood.
[/list][i]If the Church is my mother then I don't need Mary.[/i][list]
[*]Whether you know it or not, you do need Mary. God has placed in every human heart the need for a mother's love. The Church, great as she is, cannot completely fill this need, but Mary can. That is why God gives her to you as your Mother.

You seem to believe that you must choose between the two, as if having Mary as Mother and having the Church as Mother are mutually exclusive. In reality, you can have both. God is not asking you to choose between them. We Catholics recognize both Mary and the Church as Mother, and so can you.
[/list][i]How can we have two spiritual mothers?[/i][list]
[*]Jesus said that we could have hundreds of them (Mark 10:30). Why settle for just one?
[/list][i]Mary is not my mother! I don't want her for my mother! [/i][list]
[*]Well I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned, if she's good enough for Jesus she's good enough for me!

Jesus created a beautiful, holy woman to be His Mother. Rather than keep her all to Himself He gives her to us as well to be our Mother in heaven. This is consistent with His infinite generosity; He gave His life for us, shed His Blood, gives us salvation, righteousness, eternal life and a share in the divine nature (II Peter 1:4), and, as if all that weren't enough, He even gives us His own Mother, so that we may know the mother-love He put in her heart. How can we spurn this precious gift of Our Lord?
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i hope this helps.........pax christi,
phatcatholic