Why wasn't the Blessed Virgin Mary a socially important person?

[oremus1]

I hope I have phrased this correctly, not being disrespectful just wondering we don't know much about her, but:

> she wasn't a nun with distinguishing garb in a convent with an obvious 'holy' status
> She was not a very important person in the temple. For example, in our churches, we have many important people like Eucharistic Ministers, ladies leading huge organisatins and presidents of SVP etc.
> She did not (from what we know) have a huge resume of churchy activities in her temple
> in her life she was not famous in any way
 

She was just so....normal and ordinary. Obviously she prayed a lot, was charitable etc. But she did normal things like attend weddings with her 'Son' and husband. She was married. She cared for a Baby. she lived in a normal house. She probably did not have a strict horarium or a physical superior or habit or security if life(think of the flight from Egypt). she probably had to do normal things like cooking and cleaning. At the time Jesus was born, to many, she just looked like an ordinary mom in an ordinary family. At the time He died, she looked like a widow and a mother of a criminal

Why did the Lord chose her, and not a) an important lady in the temple who ran many organisations and worked full time for the temple and was well known for her important role b) a jeweish nun with a proper habit who was set apart from the world and only prayed all day all the time to a fixed horarium or c) someone else very socially powerful. maybe a a radical activist or royalty (on earth). During her life, she was just so normal. I don't get it.

 

[beatitude]

There are apocryphal stories about Mary floating around (see the Protoevangelium of James) but ultimately more is not included in the Gospel because we know all we need to know about her.

Her ordinariness is part of that. Jesus himself spent thirty years living an unseen ordinary life as a carpenter, and during his public ministry he travelled and socialised with men and women who had ordinary jobs in ordinary places. Part of the Gospel message is that Christ sanctifies our everyday life and work, thereby making it extraordinary - there is no need for outward signs of status and prestige.

There is nothing wrong with being ordinary. Nuns who follow a strict horarium are ordinary, and the ordinariness of their life is the first thing that most monastic communities I know try to impress upon discerners who might have a romantic view of it. I think you are perceiving them as far more important and 'special' than they would ever claim to be themselves. You are also trying to compare the Nazareth of 2000 years ago with the modern day Church, when it was a completely different culture and setting. There were no such things as habited Jewish nuns wandering around.

You seem to be very preoccupied with the 'status' of people within the Church, if your comments on your own parish are anything to go by. It's not worth this degree of consideration.

[oremus1]

There are apocryphal stories about Mary floating around (see the Protoevangelium of James) but ultimately more is not included in the Gospel because we know all we need to know about her.

Her ordinariness is part of that. Jesus himself spent thirty years living an unseen ordinary life as a carpenter, and during his public ministry he travelled and socialised with men and women who had ordinary jobs in ordinary places. Part of the Gospel message is that Christ sanctifies our everyday life and work, thereby making it extraordinary - there is no need for outward signs of status and prestige.

There is nothing wrong with being ordinary. Nuns who follow a strict horarium are ordinary, and the ordinariness of their life is the first thing that most monastic communities I know try to impress upon discerners who might have a romantic view of it. I think you are perceiving them as far more important and 'special' than they would ever claim to be themselves. You are also trying to compare the Nazareth of 2000 years ago with the modern day Church, when it was a completely different culture and setting. There were no such things as habited Jewish nuns wandering around.

You seem to be very preoccupied with the 'status' of people within the Church, if your comments on your own parish are anything to go by. It's not worth this degree of consideration.

Mary is often said to be the fairest of the anawim. ​The anawim of the Old Testament were the poor of every sort: the vulnerable, the marginalized, and socio-economically oppressed, those of lowly status without earthly power. In fact, they depended totally on God for whatever they owned. The Hebrew word anawim (inwetan) means those who are bowed down.

Similarly Jesus took the form of a servant

I don't understand the part you described about the sanctification of ordinariness. Or the relevance of the lowly status of Jesus and Mary. Please can you explain?

For example, the Lord could have chosen one of the important people I described in my OP *AND* made them exceptionally holy. then the message of the Gospel would have been more visible and apparent in the time Jesus was alive, and could easily be promoted because of their status. If He could preach in the temple aged 5 then why did he need to spend many years living an ordinary life, and not become a priest or important prelate?

It seems the Lord deliberately chose someone without these external signs, who had to live an ordinary life in ordinary ways. In fact, even poor people, bearing in mind it was a carpenters family.

But why? I think the below of the magnificat is relevant

 

He looks on his servant in her lowliness; *

henceforth all ages will call me blessed.

He puts forth his arm in strength *

and scatters the proud-hearted.

He casts the mighty from their thrones *

and raises the lowly.

He fills the starving with good things, *

sends the rich away empty.

 

But this talks about interior disposition and not exterior status

[oremus1]

If Mary was living in modern times, would she be an enclosed or apostolic nun? a mother? a consecrated virgin living in the world? what do you think she would spend her life doing? would she have a job?

[beatitude]

Jesus didn't preach in the temple at the age of 5. He studied with the scribes at the age of 12, but didn't begin his preaching ministry until the age of 30.

Mary isn't living in modern times, but if she were, I think she would do whatever she was called to do. Fulfilling your calling is the best way to evangelise - having a high status doesn't mean you are more likely to be listened to. Jesus didn't win followers because he was important. He won followers because what he said and did was true. The parable of the Good Shepherd who left the ninety-nine to go after the one sheep who needed him the most is a sign that Christian love is not about arithmetic. Loving people deeply also means a willingness to share in their lives, and that could be just sitting with someone on the bus and chatting to them, it doesn't have to mean standing up and giving an earth-shaking speech. We have to remember that our priorities are not necessarily God's priorities, and things that seem little and trivial to us may seem very big to God. This reminds me of the interrogation that the Dutch Christian watchmaker Corrie ten Boom went through when the Nazis caught her hiding Jews. She was questioned about her life, and she said she ran a church for intellectually disabled people. The lieutenant who was interrogating her exploded, "What a waste of time and energy! Surely if you want converts, one normal person is worth all the halfwits in the world." Corrie replied, "Perhaps in God's sight a halfwit is worth more than a watchmaker...or a lieutenant." Status and power are human creations, so why would we expect God to go along with them? As the Bible teaches us, "There is no partiality with God."

As for the people whom Christ and Mary lived among, the Gospel is about love, so it made most sense for Christ to live among people who were most unloved and likely to be passed over, not to people who already had it all. This is what we need in the Church - loving hearts committed to Christ's truth, not a PR strategy.

[oremus1]

Jesus didn't preach in the temple at the age of 5. He studied with the scribes at the age of 12, but didn't begin his preaching ministry until the age of 30.

Mary isn't living in modern times, but if she were, I think she would do whatever she was called to do. Fulfilling your calling is the best way to evangelise - having a high status doesn't mean you are more likely to be listened to. Jesus didn't win followers because he was important. He won followers because what he said and did was true. The parable of the Good Shepherd who left the ninety-nine to go after the one sheep who needed him the most is a sign that Christian love is not about arithmetic. Loving people deeply also means a willingness to share in their lives, and that could be just sitting with someone on the bus and chatting to them, it doesn't have to mean standing up and giving an earth-shaking speech. We have to remember that our priorities are not necessarily God's priorities, and things that seem little and trivial to us may seem very big to God. This reminds me of the interrogation that the Dutch Christian watchmaker Corrie ten Boom went through when the Nazis caught her hiding Jews. She was questioned about her life, and she said she ran a church for intellectually disabled people. The lieutenant who was interrogating her exploded, "What a waste of time and energy! Surely if you want converts, one normal person is worth all the halfwits in the world." Corrie replied, "Perhaps in God's sight a halfwit is worth more than a watchmaker...or a lieutenant." Status and power are human creations, so why would we expect God to go along with them? As the Bible teaches us, "There is no partiality with God."

As for the people whom Christ and Mary lived among, the Gospel is about love, so it made most sense for Christ to live among people who were most unloved and likely to be passed over, not to people who already had it all. This is what we need in the Church - loving hearts committed to Christ's truth, not a PR strategy.

​

 Sorry in my example, I was taling about the finding in the temple. Jesus as a young kid could have easily started ministry even younger. He could have become a priest and not a carpenter. He had the ability and knowledge.

Can you suggest any spiritual reading on this area of sanctification of ordinariness? The ones I have read are like "you are ordinary but you can still be holy despite your ordinary normal life and ordinary normal obligations" , I cannot find much on the deliberateness of Jesus and Mary's ordinariness. As in "the Lord chose these lowly people in ordinary lives purposefully for a specific reason (....which is.....)"
 

[oremus1]

A related question - why was Jesus not a high priest of the temple in the time on Earth?

[The Historian]

The Blessed Virgin Mary was not a socially important person because she chose not to be.  She chose to live a hidden life, a life dedicated totally to God.  She was an ordinary, normal, regular housewife.  She cooked, she cleaned, she wiped Baby Jesus' bum when I pooped his nappies.  She laughed, she cried.  She lived in a state of total, utter, and complete dependence upon God.

I get a feeling, a sense really, from your post that you find this all somehow beneath her.  But is it any less beneath Christ to do the exact same things as she did, and divinize them?  This is the beauty of the Incarnation, this is the majesty of grace and its operations in the soul.  Our Lady was so full of grace, so united with Christ, that the merit she won for simply changing her baby boy was greater than all the merits of the martyrs combined, even in their cruellest agonies.  I strongly recommend reading Saint Therese of the Little Flower, Blessed Columba Marmion and Saint Josemaría Escrivá.  The sanctification of our daily, mundane lives is what will achieve us eternal greatness.

Not to mention that women weren't allowed to even speak in the Temple, nor enter the sanctuary of the churches after Pentecost...

[oremus1]

The Blessed Virgin Mary was not a socially important person because she chose not to be.  She chose to live a hidden life, a life dedicated totally to God.  She was an ordinary, normal, regular housewife.  She cooked, she cleaned, she wiped Baby Jesus' bum when I pooped his nappies.  She laughed, she cried.  She lived in a state of total, utter, and complete dependence upon God.

I get a feeling, a sense really, from your post that you find this all somehow beneath her.  But is it any less beneath Christ to do the exact same things as she did, and divinize them?  This is the beauty of the Incarnation, this is the majesty of grace and its operations in the soul.  Our Lady was so full of grace, so united with Christ, that the merit she won for simply changing her baby boy was greater than all the merits of the martyrs combined, even in their cruellest agonies.  I strongly recommend reading Saint Therese of the Little Flower, Blessed Columba Marmion and Saint Josemaría Escrivá.  The sanctification of our daily, mundane lives is what will achieve us eternal greatness.

Not to mention that women weren't allowed to even speak in the Temple, nor enter the sanctuary of the churches after Pentecost...

​My issue is not with the life she CHOSE but rather why the Lord chose her given the state of life she was in. the Lord could have chosen anyone more socially important but He didn't. why?

[truthfinder]

Well Jesus Himself was a contradiction - He could have chosen to be an earthly and temporal ruler (in the ways the Jews were hoping for), but He didn't.  I wouldn't expect that the woman He chose to be his mother would be any different.  I think Mary's Magnificat is a good answer.

[BarbTherese]

Possibly it might be more revealing to reflect on the fact that Mary was a simple ordinary mother in her times and lived a comparatively hidden life, as Jesus was, after 30 years living an ordinary and hidden life, a poor and itinerant preacher in His Times.  These two people, we know, lived a life of complete obedience to The Father and His Will.  What is this telling me?

A. In part - in worldly way of thinking we have ideas of importance and status.  With the Incarnation, Life and Death of Jesus all our worldly ways of thinking are challenged and destroyed as Jesus establishes a completely new order, completely new concepts, of what is important and status in His Kingdom and to embrace these latter, one is going to have to abandon all ways of worldly type thought through to action.  We can cling, if we choose, to our worldly type ways of thought and action, but the reality is that we are living an illusion (delusion).

Luke Ch13 "And behold, they are last that shall be first; and they are first that shall be last."  In different contexts and in three of The Gospels, this is stated by Jesus at least 8 times.

Mark Ch 9 "And sitting down, he called the twelve, and saith to them: If any man desire to be first, he shall be the last of all, and the minister of all."

All the parables of Jesus are a direct challenge to wordly ways of thought turning things upside down.  Just as the Birth, Life and Death of Jesus and that of His mother challenge our wordy ways of thought.  Living the life Jesus calls one to will be to 'swim against the tide' of many things indeed held important to this world and we probably will pass out of this world totally unimportant and unremarked in any way.  Even held as crazy just as some friends of Jesus thought that He was: Mark Ch3 "And when his friends had heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him. For they said: He is become mad."  And this event occurs early in the public Life of Jesus.

____________

If I want an answer as to why God did not choose a 'higher' status for Mary and her Son, Jesus - simply read the Gospels.

[Gabriela]

having a high status doesn't mean you are more likely to be listened to.

This is what we need in the Church - loving hearts committed to Christ's truth, not a PR strategy.

​Whoa, there. All your posts have been amesome so far, but actually, in our times—and Jesus'—having high status DOES mean you're more likely to be listened to. That's one of the perks (and dangers) of high status. Of course, it doesn't mean low-status people can never be heard. But I think that, when it comes to someone like Mother Theresa, you have to ask yourself what counts as "status". Cuz I think Mother Theresa had crazy high status.

As for what the Church needs: She needs BOTH loving hearts committed to Christ's truth AND a PR strategy. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and PR is not all lies and manipulation. The Church DESPERATELY needs a PR strategy... God help her, does she ever!

[BarbTherese]

Also, take St Therese of Lisieux  who lived a hidden Carmelite life in what was really, before her death, a 'backwater Carmelite monastery' in France.  It was not until after her humble and hidden monastic life that she revolutionised spiritual theology in The Church in the Catholic cultural consciousness - and she became a very loud voice in The Church for sure after her death only.  She never actively and consciously strived to be a loud voice in The Church, to have something to say to the Universal Church.

Comments about her life from her own religious sisters before any hint of her fame became known and while St Therese was dying : "She is a good nun, but nothing outstanding".  This does speak to what God can do with a life that is totally dedicated to His Will in all things.  And nothing of status in a worldly sense whatsoever not even among her own religious sisters. In fact with St Therese it was a life totally hidden, much as the lives of Our Lady and Jesus (His hidden years) were..........and also the life of St Joseph.

[BarbTherese]

If one is called to high worldly status, then embrace it and live it well striving daily to embrace God's Will.  If one is called to a lowly worldly type of status, do precisely the same.

[BarbTherese]

I feel that certainly with Pope Francis and his two predecessors, they are examples of being called to a high type of worldly status striving to live it well embracing God's Will. 

[Credo in Deum]

​My issue is not with the life she CHOSE but rather why the Lord chose her given the state of life she was in. the Lord could have chosen anyone more socially important but He didn't. why?

St. Louis Mari DeMonfort answers this beautifuly;

"Because Mary remained hidden during her life she is called by the Holy Spirit and the Church "Alma Mater", Mother hidden and unknown. So great was her humility that she desired nothing more upon earth than to remain unknown to herself and to others, and to be known only to God. In answer to her prayers to remain hidden, poor and lowly, God was pleased to conceal her from nearly every other human creature in her conception, her birth, her life, her mysteries, her resurrection and assumption. Her own parents did not really know her; and the angels would often ask one another, "Who can she possibly be?", for God had hidden her from them, or if he did reveal anything to them, it was nothing compared with what he withheld."

There is more that he wrote but for the sake of not pasting a wall of text I will try to leave you with this.  God chose Mary because her love for God is so great that according to St. Louis it cannot be comprehended by any human being. 

"Finally, we must say in the words of the apostle Paul, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has the heart of man understood" the beauty, the grandeur, the excellence of Mary, who is indeed a miracle of miracles of grace, nature and glory. "If you wish to understand the Mother," says a saint, "then understand the Son. She is a worthy Mother of God." Hic taceat omnis lingua : Here let every tongue be silent. "

 

 

[beatitude]

​Whoa, there. All your posts have been amesome so far, but actually, in our times—and Jesus'—having high status DOES mean you're more likely to be listened to. That's one of the perks (and dangers) of high status. Of course, it doesn't mean low-status people can never be heard. But I think that, when it comes to someone like Mother Theresa, you have to ask yourself what counts as "status". Cuz I think Mother Theresa had crazy high status.

​I'm not sure about this. When Malcolm Muggeridge wanted to make that film about the Missionaries of Charity, which was to make them famous, Mother Teresa kept refusing for ages. Her work was still valuable and still reaching many despite that refusal. The MCs still won't have an official website as they believe vocations will come without one. I think Mother Teresa was much like Jesus in the sense that she gained status through what she did, not through what she was born, and the fact that she was so ordinary and had been prepared to work in the slums in obscurity was what allowed people to take her seriously. Oremus1 seems to be asking why Christ didn't have a high-status job like Temple priest or come from a well-known prestigious family, and that description couldn't fit Mother Teresa either.

Regarding PR, I can see your point, but I'm uncomfortable with the term because it sounds too much like marketing - as though we just need a few good high-status celebrities to polish up our image and everything will be fine. Fr Corapi was a celebrity priest and a gifted communicator, and look what became of him, so I'm very cautious about setting too much store by status. All that glitters isn't gold.

[Nunsense]

There are a couple of topics being discussed in this thread, related but also different.

As for status, Jesus said that the proud will be humbled and the humble exalted. For most saints, this appears to have happened. St Therese, St Teresa of the Andes, Mother Teresa, etc were all very low status and humble, but they were exalted by God and so people might think they were high status, but they weren't in the beginning - they just ended up that way. Some saints might have been of high birth or status, but the majority seem to have been those that were not great of themselves, but who were great because of God's grace acting in them . They were exalted so that they could exalt Him. The BVM is the same: she was a very humble and lowly woman who was exalted by God to become the Queen of Heaven. And in exalting God, God also allowed her to exalt Him.

As for God choosing a lowly woman for the role of His Mother instead of a high status one, well, he did more than that. He actually created her exactly as He wanted -  holy and Immaculate in the womb - she was the Immaculate Conception. He chose the place of her birth, the parents she would have, and also created her without original sin. So a lot of planning went into His selection. He chose to exalt the lowly, and all generations shall call her blessed.

It is to God's glory and greatness than He is able to exalt the lowly as He does - much more so than choosing important people and allowing them to become objects of worship. We must remember that He chose simple fishermen and a tax collector to be His Apostles as well. And the one who did have status (St Paul) certainly had to be humbled first because of all the persecution he had carried out towards Christians. 

There is nothing to wonder at in God's choices - all of them designed to demonstrate His glory.

[Gabriela]

​I'm not sure about this. When Malcolm Muggeridge wanted to make that film about the Missionaries of Charity, which was to make them famous, Mother Teresa kept refusing for ages. Her work was still valuable and still reaching many despite that refusal. The MCs still won't have an official website as they believe vocations will come without one. I think Mother Teresa was much like Jesus in the sense that she gained status through what she did, not through what she was born, and the fact that she was so ordinary and had been prepared to work in the slums in obscurity was what allowed people to take her seriously. Oremus1 seems to be asking why Christ didn't have a high-status job like Temple priest or come from a well-known prestigious family, and that description couldn't fit Mother Teresa either.

Regarding PR, I can see your point, but I'm uncomfortable with the term because it sounds too much like marketing - as though we just need a few good high-status celebrities to polish up our image and everything will be fine. Fr Corapi was a celebrity priest and a gifted communicator, and look what became of him, so I'm very cautious about setting too much store by status. All that glitters isn't gold.

​Well, if we limit "status" to only what one has by birth or title, then that's a pretty narrow definition, and kinda' pointless, cuz God doesn't care about any of that stuff. But I don't think that's the way most Catholics use the word "status": One can have "status" because one is respected and holy and does much good. By that definition, Mother Theresa has mega-status.

And so does Mary. Even in her own day, she was much revered by the Apostles and other followers of Jesus. So... :-\

PR is much misunderstood. It isn't marketing at all, though the two are often confused. PR is about how one builds relationships with various publics. For the Church, this would mean, for example, how we build our relationship with Muslims, with atheists, with people hostile to the Church, with journalists, etc. It's fallacious to say that just because someone who was gifted at communicating turned out to be a crook, we should be wary of anyone who is gifted at communicating, cuz they're probably just all show. There's enough public incompetence in the Church as it is, and this attitude will only increase it. We need people who are holy, trustworthy, and have a deep love of the Church and a deep faith life, AS WELL AS a gift for communication and building relationships with non-Catholics. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and by casting suspicion on anyone who's good with words and has a "glittering appearance," we alienate precisely those faithful Catholics who could do enormous good for the Church.

 

[Gabriela]

Now it comes to me what's wrong in this thread: The question is misleading. Mary WAS a socially important person, but she wasn't chosen by God because she was socially important a priori. She became socially important a posteriori BECAUSE God chose her.

The basic answer to the OP's question, I think, is: God doesn't care about what or who humans think is "socially important". We often make stupid choices in that regard. Just look at who our celebrities are. Anyway, if God wants someone to get something done, He'll equip them to get it done. So he doesn't need our foolish estimations to accomplish His ends. He can make us esteem what is truly worthy by showing us how good, true, and beautiful it is.

And then there's what others have already said, that by choosing Mary, the lowliest of all maidens, (and even before that, Israel, the lowliest of all nations), He inspires all of us "nobodies" to believe that we are important and have worth, at least in His opinion. And His opinion is the only one that matters, ultimately.