Homosexuality disordered/if you speak a foreign language please read this

[superblue]

"Every word or attitude is forbidden which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct. Adulation is a grave fault if it makes one an accomplice in another's vices or grave sins. Neither the desire to be of service nor friendship justifies duplicitous speech. Adulation is a venial sin when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages (CCC 2480)."

 

​I agree that denying general service to homosexuals is wrong. But, I don't think this is an issue with current events. The issue is providing goods or services to specific things such as a homosexual weddings, or gay pride rallies, etc.--specific things or events that contradict church teaching.

​exactly the CCC does not prevent or mention anything regarding about providing goods an services to homosexuals, I would disagree that means and is specifically addressing a homosexual wedding, there is a big difference  in how the CCC addresses a venial sin vs flat out supporting something such as a gay rally, two individuals who want to ignore the path to Christ after being fully aware of the path, and are willing to gamble on the consequences; is on them. Me selling a good or service to that couple is not in any way shape or form encouraging them to continue down that path, nor would I as a business owner refusing to provide a good or service in turn persuade that couple to rethink their choices in life, all that happens is I would lose money and they would move on to someone else who would sell them what they want.  VS the Rally which you mention, that is a bigger event on a massive scale that can be viewed by a lot of people, like a sports game where there are advertisement banners every where by companies, that in turn suggests that they do support said sport or perhaps even team, which is why some companies will pull their product with a pro athlete or team if that person or team acts in a way that the company does not support.

 

But if we want to continue down the path of goods and services then the CCC needs to consider addressing explosives and the manufacturing of firearms and weapons, because now it seems as if we have to split hairs; who is to blame for violence, the person that makes the gun powder, the bullet , or gun / and then sales those items, or is it the person who goes out looking for the weapon to harm someone. Any weapon, the knife, pencil, or what ever, because the theme is becoming specific items for sale.

The CCC isn't wrong in addressing being passive to blatant activities against Church teaching and mortal and venial sin.I would think this part of the CCC better suits businesses that sale drug paraphernalia pipes, scales, etc, that is specifically saying hey we know what you are doing, and we are now tailoring to you and are encouraging you to keep on going.If a company is approached  by a Gay advocacy group to produce a customer order of banners and shirts that have some slogan on why its okay to be gay, that is completely different from a baker making and delivering a cake, or Target or any other retail providing a gift registry service to a homosexual couple.

or perhaps Target and other retailers need to rethink if they should provide gift registry services to homosexuals, where is the line ? Evidently right now the line seems to be at just weddings, which to me seems ridiculous.

It is good to see at least one homosexual being able to understand and respect the right of Christians, I am sure that poor woman is now an outcast in the homosexual community an is labeled some kind of sell out.

An I am also curious as to what the CCC says in regards to a homosexual president who is married an has an adopted child, or better yet what is the Vatican an Papacy going to say on that day ?  I preemptively feel sorry for those that have to answer that mess. An am glad I won't be around to see it.

[superblue]

I have a heart disorder, the word disorder it doesn't shame me or offend me. I have a heart condition that is outside the norm, calling it a disorder isn't hurtful. It's just a way to describe an abnormality. The CCC calls SSA an inclination disorder. There are many kinds of disorders that effect man that have nothing to do with mental illness/disorders.

​in terms of the word disorder , words in general do matter a lot, some people may not understand why, because they personally are not offended by the word or label itself. But I find that a poor reasoning to say well I am fine with the term/ label and I fit the definition, so what is the big deal, an I am not singling you out specifically KoC, but this has been brought up a few times, the subject itself is what I am getting at.

The word Retard / Retarded is a word which now holds a negative / slang/ insulting tone, when in reality it is really a professional word. an again it boils down to context and how each person interprets a word, we have plenty of words medical and non medical, which have been distorted by society and have become negative labels.  The word Disorder has now come to fit under the negative aspect. The word in general does not have a positive inclination to it, the word instantly suggests something negative, so even though it is not intended to be used as a hurtful word. That being said I am not surprised when someone, be it a homosexual or someone medically diagnosed is offended by being labeled with a " disorder "  because the word comes off as judgmental.

An I think when reading the Catechism it really depends how one is reading it on how that person interprets it, are they looking at it as an informational book / set of guidelines, or are the considering this to be how Christ / God  is actually judging humanity.

Edited April 7, 2015 by superblue

[KnightofChrist]

​in terms of the word disorder , words in general do matter a lot, some people may not understand why, because they personally are not offended by the word or label itself. But I find that a poor reasoning to say well I am fine with the term/ label and I fit the definition, so what is the big deal, an I am not singling you out specifically KoC, but this has been brought up a few times, the subject itself is what I am getting at.

The word Retard / Retarded is a word which now holds a negative / slang/ insulting tone, when in reality it is really a professional word. an again it boils down to context and how each person interprets a word, we have plenty of words medical and non medical, which have been distorted by society and have become negative labels.  The word Disorder has now come to fit under the negative aspect. The word in general does not have a positive inclination to it, the word instantly suggests something negative, so even though it is not intended to be used as a hurtful word. That being said I am not surprised when someone, be it a homosexual or someone medically diagnosed is offended by being labeled with a " disorder "  because the word comes off as judgmental.

An I think when reading the Catechism it really depends how one is reading it on how that person interprets it, are they looking at it as an informational book / set of guidelines, or are the considering this to be how Christ / God  is actually judging humanity.

​I know what everyone is trying to say when they object to the word disorder. Still I find it highly probable that it won't make a hill of beans what word is used to show the inclination and the act in a negative light. Whatever word is used it will be view as judgmental.

It's really easy to protest the use of the word, but so far, to the best of my knowledge, I've not seen any of those here who object to the word offer any alternatives they find acceptable. Maybe I missed it? If not, rather than continue to protest why not offer a solution? What's a better word or words that mean the same thing the CCC means by disordered but are soft and nicer?

Edited April 7, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

Misplaced (I offer this only as an interested party in vocabulary, not a follower of this debate)

Edited April 7, 2015 by Era Might

[Era Might]

Just to add a little word commentary: "Misplaced" implies that they have something (presumably love, affection, sexuality) to place, they've just placed it in the wrong place, whereas "disordered" only implies wrongness, nothing affirmative. To "place" something is a personal act, whereas something can be "ordered" without any reference to a person.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Era Might

[KnightofChrist]

Misplaced just may be soft enough to be acceptable. But over time it is still likely to become unacceptable. Much like the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin", which was  phrase that was generally acceptable but more and more now it is seen as judgmental. Speaking of "sin" I doubt that word is acceptable.

[Era Might]

I don't think the goal for any use of language is to be "acceptable" but to get closer to the sense of what you mean. I'd argue that "misplaced" is truer than "disordered" not because it is softer but because it is a more powerful word, it recognizes a person and not just a "condition" and empowers that person with an ability to love, feel and place affection, be a sexual being. "Sin" means nothing in itself, it's just a sign like all other words, which all exist in a context. That's the trouble with traditional words, they become cliches and we cease to even understand what we mean by them, we use them thoughtlessly without ever considering what they mean...and then they get cheapened with proverbs like "love the sinner, hate the sin." Words like "sin" fail not because they they are serious words but because they lose their numinosity, their sacred context, and "sin" just becomes a vague idea of "wrongdoing" and "guilt" that has as little to do with the workings of the human heart and grace as "sweet" tells us what it's like to eat honey and strawberries. "Dude, I got a new car." "Sweet!"

Edited April 7, 2015 by Era Might

[Era Might]

Of course, "misplaced" can also lose the sense of what it means, precisely because it is a soft word. "I misplaced my humanity this morning" is a good use of language to say you beat up an old lady.

I absolutely hate when people make public apologies/confessions with phrases like "I made mistakes" or "I did some things I'm not proud of." Perfect PR speech.

[dUSt]

​The CCC isn't wrong in addressing being passive to blatant activities against Church teaching and mortal and venial sin.I would think this part of the CCC better suits businesses that sale drug paraphernalia pipes, scales, etc, that is specifically saying hey we know what you are doing, and we are now tailoring to you and are encouraging you to keep on going.If a company is approached  by a Gay advocacy group to produce a customer order of banners and shirts that have some slogan on why its okay to be gay, that is completely different from a baker making and delivering a cake, or Target or any other retail providing a gift registry service to a homosexual couple.

​Do you not think a gay wedding is a blatant activity against church teaching? I'm confused by your reasoning. You seem to be saying you agree with a businesses right to refuse to make a "gay t-shirt" but disagree that they should have a right to make a "gay wedding cake". Both things contradict Church teaching, so why are you drawing the line there? generally speaking, do you agree or disagree with the Church's teaching on homosexuality?

[superblue]

​Do you not think a gay wedding is a blatant activity against church teaching? I'm confused by your reasoning. You seem to be saying you agree with a businesses right to refuse to make a "gay t-shirt" but disagree that they should have a right to make a "gay wedding cake". Both things contradict Church teaching, so why are you drawing the line there? generally speaking, do you agree or disagree with the Church's teaching on homosexuality?

​ugh ya dodged some points I posted that I think are worth the comparison.  I can accept and follow all Church teaching on homosexuality and not agree with certain aspects that are being debated here.  I can also uphold the rules of the Church and admit that I don't fully understand or agree with them either.  Worst case scenario under the CCC from which you sited is that it is a venial sin.

But if making a cake and selling a cake is some how going against the teachings of the church, then Retailers across America who at least claim to be Christian and / or Catholic, by these standards that are being debated here and ferreted out in America starting with the Indiana law, everyone has to be scrutinized , from those that make those rainbow flag stickers and etc, to retailers who do not scrutinize if a heterosexual or homosexual couple is patronizing their services in the gift registry department, to everything, for me it is all or nothing,  on this subject, to start splitting hairs and go well, we can treat the individual with human dignity but as a collective we can not is too much. An that is what is happening, we are saying we will not debate businesses that sale drug related items nor acknowledge that it is more of a dangerous and ongoing problem, but we will scream bloody hell over selling items to individuals or groups of individuals that in no way shape or form can prevent or influence homosexuals to rethink their lives one way or another.

In the big grand scheme of things, I really do not care if the gay community is being sold t shirts, cakes, stickers, guns, knives, cars, or Ferraris,

the only thing I honestly draw a line on is when the homosexual community demands that I as an individual respect and accept their choice to engage in homosexual relationships and that specifically the Roman Catholic Church, changes her tune and allows them to be married in the Church when everyone knows that Church just simply can not and will not do that. If they want to screw their lives up by being married secularly that is their choice, I am not going to chase them down the street or meet them in a social setting with the catechism in hand and go ya know, section xyz states that you are pretty much screwed and you should really consider changing your ways. An I would draw another line on homosexuals being allowed to adopt children, if they can not accept the fact that they can not procreate, that is their problem not anyone else and they can go an adopt a puppy an call it a child like the rest of us who cant have children for what ever reason.

 

but in the mean time lets ignore those who are making an selling weapons of any type for either personal or military usage and not hold them to the same standard as being in some morally corrupt state of sin as stated in the CCC, and people making and selling drug related items and selling them to anyone of legal age.

 

 

[superblue]

and if I am wrong make sure to go after those Democrats who are Catholic and ask them why they support a political party that supports abortions an much worse. Once they are hit hard with " the truth " i'll take a second a look at my ration of thinking on this small potato.

[dUSt]

I'm having trouble finding points in anything you've said so far. Can you use bullets?

[PhuturePriest]

I'm having trouble finding points in anything you've said so far. Can you use bullets?

​http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01715/gun-shooting-fail_1715961a.gif

Edited April 7, 2015 by PhuturePriest

[Eliakim]

Nothing in this conversation so far about offering those struggling with SSA a way to change.  There are Christian organizations that do this.  Eventually I hope the Vatican catches up.  D. James Kennedy had one outfit in Fort Lauderdale FL that helped those struggling with SSA change, by the power of the Holy Spirit in large part.  Catholics need to broaden themselves and incorporate these extremely helpful elements that are for the most part being advocated by non-Catholic Christians.

Militant homosexuals (including those posing as "open-minded" heterosexuals) hate these charitable organizations because it puts them at odds with the world, but let us never allow them to frame the discussion to pretend these do not work.  Look into it yourself.  I am not going to debate it since the proof is there for those with eyes to see and a heart set on truth.  If you truly are seeking the truth and not just trying to see how far the Catholic Church can be pushed, then please search out these organizations and disregard the snide comments that will ensue from the haters of these good loving Christian organizations.

With Christ all things are possible.  All disorders and predispositions to sinful behavior can be overcome.

God Bless and guide!

E

Edited April 7, 2015 by Eliakim

[Norseman82]

Firstly, thanks for the attempt to find me a wife. Should I ever feel the need for a dating service, I now know where to come.