The Sacred Secular?

[BarbTherese]

I am putting this into Debate as I suspect only that there MIGHT arise some debate.  What I quote below in the quotation box (and related questions) comes from a Post on Consecrated Virginity : http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/136912-consecrated-virginshermits-and-the-selfish-single-life/?do=findComment&comment=2722112

 

The news about the meeting of formators in Rome last week seems to have laid emphasis on all vocations (including monastic and religious) to live their charisms 'in the world'.  This will break down the fortress mentality of creating walls between the sacred and the secular.

 

My questions arising are:

1 - Is the secular sacred?  Why/How do we know?

 2 -  Is there a "fortress mentality of creating walls between the sacred and the secular" in consecrated life and also amongst the laity? Why does this come about?

 3 -  Should those in consecrated life  -  all forms -  "live out their charisms 'in the world' " and what does this mean exactly? 

 

Rather than launch into responses of my own to the above, which would be lengthy, if this thread does have life, undoubtedly my own responses will unfold too.

[Nihil Obstat]

From the small bit in your post, those religious who choose to join highly contemplative or strictly cloistered communities are rather denigrated. That does not seem consonant with Catholic Tradition.

[Nihil Obstat]

Of course, cloistered and contemplative religious are certainly already in the world, though they are not of it. How could they be otherwise?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[BarbTherese]

No, probably the small amount I posted is to lead astray.  I think if we consider the whole life of Jesus, it is obvious (to me) that very strictly enclosed monastics reflect the prayer life of Jesus alone on a mountain.  Seems to me that obviously, those of us immersed in secular life in the laity (which is my experience) have not much time daily to spend alone in prayer - but the witness of our monastics, for example, do speak to us that we should give time to being alone in prayer...........indeed that we must.

The Gospels, I don't think, tell us that Jesus spent time alone in prayer every single day.  But I think as a pious Jew, which He was, He would have spent time daily in prayer.  These reflections on what we know of the Life of Jesus tell me things about my own life.

Edited April 15, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Of course, cloistered and contemplative religious are certainly already in the world, though they are not of it. How could they be otherwise?

​Agreed - of course they are in the world, but they are cut off to varying degrees in the various communities from secular life.  All the baptised whether involved in secular life or in contemplative consecrated life are consecrated outside of the world (by The Holy Spirit), or not of the world.  All those baptised are not of the world.

For the purposes of this thread, if not further afield, "secular" means the ordinary everyday affairs of human life outside of what is specifically religious matters.  "World" means all pertaining to ordinary human existence.

Edited April 15, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I think that the long standing Catholic cultural term "in the world but not of the world" used specifically only to describe those in Holy Orders or consecrated life is one of those terms that has subscribed to building a fortress separating the holy from the 'unholy' or the secular.  A sad state of affairs that has built up in The Church on subjective levels a class system.  Speaking on an objective only theological level there is a class type of grading for the various states of life.

[Nihil Obstat]

I think that the long standing Catholic cultural term "in the world but not of the world" used specifically only to describe those in Holy Orders or consecrated life is one of those terms that has subscribed to building a fortress separating the holy from the 'unholy' or the secular.  A sad state of affairs that has built up in The Church on subjective levels a class system.  Speaking on an objective only theological level there is a class type of grading for the various states of life.

I believe the term refers to all Christians actually.

[BarbTherese]

I believe the term refers to all Christians actually.

​Thank you and we agree.  I have only ever heard the term used in reference to priesthood and consecrated life but then I have not heard the term much at all personally since pre V2 days when it was consistently used in reference to priesthood and consecrated life only.  And even on those occasions when I have heard it post V2, it is only in reference to priesthood and consecrated life.

[BarbTherese]

What I do wonder about and I mean no offence but I have long wondered.  Once in enclosed monastic life, we had lay religious who took care of manual jobs and also shopping etc - matters outside of the cloister.  This "lay religious" ceased with Vatican II.  What I do wonder is if contemplative religious would profit personally from taking turns on matters outside of the cloister and in ordinary secular life at least for a limited period (manual matters inside the cloister are now handled by all within the cloister).

The reason I have pondered this, though not at all my brief, is what St Teresa had to say as absolutely ridiculous - and that was that some nuns experiencing what seemed the Prayer of Quiet were too afraid to even move (in case, I guess, they lost their 'quiet'). St Teresa thought this laughable and ridiculous.  Can this be extended to monastics being afraid to be involved in the secular in case their.......what?..........'contemplation' is affected?

[BarbTherese]

Certainly, St Teresa of Avila, was a gifted contemplative and astounding mystic and person - she established around 14 monasteries of her reform all over Spain and from 43 - 67yrs she travelled extensively throughout Spain and had much to do with secular people and quite secular and involved secular matters.  Her contemplation and mysticism remained profound. .."Her travels and work were not always greeted with enthusiasm, many resented her reforms and the implied criticism of existing religious orders. She often met with criticism including the papal nuncio who used the rather descriptive phrase “a restless disobedient gadabout who has gone about teaching as though she were a professor” https://www.biographyonline.net/spiritual/st_teresa_avila.html

Either the journey of St Teresa speaks to a unique and one off for all time (as we all are) remarkable person highly gifted, and/or it might say something to us about contemplative living in truth and conditions for contemplative living in truth.  I am unsure which - and as I said, not my brief other than to ponder the situation.  .............Perhaps it can speak to my brief a little bit of thought revealed.  We are all called to contemplation and contemplative living, each in our own way in our own circumstances.

Is contemplative living dependant on actual life circumstances, or is it dependant on giving ourselves to God and His Will in all circumstances regardless of incidentals?

__________________

Are there Two Paths to Holiness?

"The other day while doing research for a blog post, I came across a discussion about Teresa of Avila’s Interior Castle in a Catholic forum. One poster wrote that a holy priest told her that Teresa of Avila’s teaching was not meant for most lay people. This is the sort of comment that perturbs me........."........

..............."..........Fr. Thomas Dubay writes,

“Scripture knows nothing of two ways to God and two differing prayer paths, one for the many, the other for the few. Nor have I found in patristic or medieval literature anything suggesting the two-way theory of recent centuries… I may say, however, that this recent view is not only incompatible with clear texts in Vatican II, texts dealing with mystical contemplation, but it is also clearly excluded in many texts by both Carmelites [Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross]…” (Fire Within, Chapter 11, pp. 199-200.)

Now, of course, contemplation is a gift from God. He can give it or withhold it as He chooses. But that is true of all His gifts. It doesn’t follow that He only gives it to a few, or that He only desires for a few to have it. The problem is not God’s lack of generosity, but ours. Few people give their all to God. Those who do find that He also gives His all to them. In other words, they become contemplatives.
Read more: http://www.spiritualdirection.com/2015/01/27/are-there-two-paths-to-holiness#ixzz3XLZ55Aps

[puellapaschalis]

There is a widespread and chronic insecurity in modern times which, I think, leads to people feeling excluded rather easily. The causes of this insecurity are legion. I think this insecurity itself is a major cause of the coolness and distrust about groups being clearly, also visually, set apart for some particular task, role, or life.

[BarbTherese]

There is a widespread and chronic insecurity in modern times which, I think, leads to people feeling excluded rather easily. The causes of this insecurity are legion. I think this insecurity itself is a major cause of the coolness and distrust about groups being clearly, also visually, set apart for some particular task, role, or life.

 

​You may well be correct.  Alternatively, it may well be that unless one belongs to a group clearly defined and accepted within Catholic cultural consciousness, one is held suspect and there is a struggle to erase such suspicion which could be labelled by all sorts of negative terms. Avoidance of struggle might be a handy answer or even to seek to choose the accepted.  If one asks questions and even challenges status quo, invariably possibly one can expect problems.  It is not necessarily at all "insecurity is a major cause of the coolness and distrust about groups being clearly, also visually, set apart for some particular task, role or life.  Nor is it necessarily "coolness and distrust".

The issue remains to me "What is the truth of matters?" in relation to most any question posed - ideally addressing the question rather than the one who questions.

Edited April 15, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[God's Beloved]

I found the following interesting

He continued: "All the people who know the human personality -- may they be psychologists, spiritual fathers, spiritual mothers -- tell us that young people who unconsciously feel they have something unbalanced or some problem of mental imbalance or deviation unconsciously seek strong structures that protect them, to protect themselves."

 

http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/pope-francis-warns-religious-orders-not-accept-unbalanced-people

[BarbTherese]

I found the following interesting

He continued: "All the people who know the human personality -- may they be psychologists, spiritual fathers, spiritual mothers -- tell us that young people who unconsciously feel they have something unbalanced or some problem of mental imbalance or deviation unconsciously seek strong structures that protect them, to protect themselves."

 

http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/pope-francis-warns-religious-orders-not-accept-unbalanced-people

​Hi GB again.................Where vocation is concerned, all vocations, I think that discerning that the person has a vocation to that way of life and the qualities necessary to live the life for the distance are present - this is of prime importance and that it is the brief, responsibility and accountability for vocation directors, formators within the life.  Nor do I think that any sort of commitment should be made until vocation directors, formators feel confident on the point.  Where God bestows a vocation and call, He bestows the qualities necessary and the necessary qualities are one of the criteria for discerning the presence of vocation.  Wisely does Pope Francis point out in the article you have quoted, GB, that when someone leaves religious life, it is a time of grief for those responsible for formation and even for the whole community.  It is a time of grief, it is hard, for all ............but "can foster the continuing path of formation in the director"  and in the individuals in a community. And this is very important where all of life's griefs and sorrows are concerned, no matter one's vocation or role.

Just to clear the air a bit.  I suffer bipolar disorder and entered and left monastic life of my own choosing.  The way of life I live under private vows has been a commitment for over 35 years now.  Not exactly a flash in the pan and obviously a way of life I have the qualities to live I would think or (with all I have been through) I would have been out of here yonks ago and truly so fast no one indeed would see me for dust.  How on earth have I persevered? I don't ask myself that question, because there is only one sure answer.   I certainly found that in monastic life, the particular way of life I felt called to live could not be fulfilled within monastic structure as it was.  I had hoped that somehow it would.  I now know that mine is a completely different way of life (task or role) within The Church, The Mystical Body of Christ, to that of monastic life.  I had no vocation to monastic life.  I have found Peace and Joy, fulfilment in this way of life and despite many critics and criticisms, many falls and rising again, many difficulties and sufferings.  Now all of that was not something I knew consciously from the beginning, it was an unfolding and a clarity that grew and continues to grow through many ups and downs along the way - perhaps more accurately I suspect a definition that grew and continues to grow.  Undoubtedly, The Archbishop's permission for a Home Mass in order to renew my life vows was an affirmation I had not anticipated.  And affirmation is important to all human beings and to our human psychology -  well or unwell.  But I had lived the life for near on or over 35 years without any sort of affirmation, rather quite totally to the contrary.

But the above is a subjective element whereas I am really hoping this thread will avoid the personal and address the questions objectively.  Perhaps I should have known better than choose the Debate Forum!   ...........

Edited April 15, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[oremus1]

I am putting this into Debate as I suspect only that there MIGHT arise some debate.  What I quote below in the quotation box (and related questions) comes from a Post on Consecrated Virginity : http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/136912-consecrated-virginshermits-and-the-selfish-single-life/?do=findComment&comment=2722112

My questions arising are:

1 - Is the secular sacred?  Why/How do we know?

 2 -  Is there a "fortress mentality of creating walls between the sacred and the secular" in consecrated life and also amongst the laity? Why does this come about?

 3 -  Should those in consecrated life  -  all forms -  "live out their charisms 'in the world' " and what does this mean exactly?

 

Rather than launch into responses of my own to the above, which would be lengthy, if this thread does have life, undoubtedly my own responses will unfold too.

 ​CVs are apostles in 'things of the spirit and in things of the world'. It is in the Rite.

My questions to you:

> Who is the Church? the hierarchy? all the faithful? all people and nations? Having answered that question, consider, what is service to the church?

> In serving others, especially the least of our brethren, we serve Christ. Who are our brethren? Those who come to institutional catholic charities seeking help? Those who come to church? Or all people in all circumstances?

> Consider Jesus and Mary doing normal chores, Jesus living a hidden life subject to work in his twenties. They were not in a monastery. Would it have been holier if they were?

> what is evangelical poverty? Is it a measure of what you have? or your attitude towards what you have? How can this idea be applied to other virtues and counsels

I think you get what I mean now.

While the life of an atheist humanitarian might outwardly look very much the same to a deeply devoted Christian (apart from the Sacraments and prayer), the REASOn why they are doing what they do is what makes those mundane things and acts of kindness sanctified