The Sacred Secular?

[BarbTherese]

A charism and gift of The Holy Spirit, I have read, most often is a response to a perceived need in The Church.

I do not have such a charism not being called to be any sort of foundress.  I can however sight a need in The Church and a potential response.

Edited April 17, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[PhuturePriest]

I am putting this into Debate as I suspect only that there MIGHT arise some debate.  What I quote below in the quotation box (and related questions) comes from a Post on Consecrated Virginity : http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/136912-consecrated-virginshermits-and-the-selfish-single-life/?do=findComment&comment=2722112

 

 

My questions arising are:

1 - Is the secular sacred?  Why/How do we know?

 2 -  Is there a "fortress mentality of creating walls between the sacred and the secular" in consecrated life and also amongst the laity? Why does this come about?

 3 -  Should those in consecrated life  -  all forms -  "live out their charisms 'in the world' " and what does this mean exactly? 

 

Rather than launch into responses of my own to the above, which would be lengthy, if this thread does have life, undoubtedly my own responses will unfold too.

​Pope Pius XII said that without cloistered religious, there would be no conversions. He said something along the lines of "they are the water that fertilizes the fields," meaning that without them, those of us who do go out into the world preaching in a direct manner would have no success whatsoever.

[BarbTherese]

​Pope Pius XII said that without cloistered religious, there would be no conversions. He said something along the lines of "they are the water that fertilizes the fields," meaning that without them, those of us who do go out into the world preaching in a direct manner would have no success whatsoever.

​I hold that contemplative life is indeed our powerhouse of prayer and without prayer we can do nothing. The subject of this thread is not about the validity of the contemplative vocation, which is not questioned in any way - nor is the 'active' religious nor priesthood in any way questioned.   I guess what I might be questioning possibly is the way of life itself, how it is lived out, and how it might speak more clearly to not only the laity but to the general society as well - as well as possibly benefit those within the life.  These are only questions!

When religious life was first defined within The Church, it was the days when 'the world' was regarded as sinful and contrary to The Gospel, working against The Gospel - and to be rejected.  Certainly then, and back then, religious life seen to be separated completely from the world had complete validity.  Back then, I guess the laity were left in the world as some sort of second class citizens in The Church - floundering in an evil world striving to save their own souls.  I think we still living with a layover per se of that incorrect thinking and the result.

Again, I am not making absolute statements, rather asking questions. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

As an addition, I cannot see why in societies where Islaamic women are quite free to wear their veils in the main, why religious women in habit and veils could not be seen to be, for example only, serving in shops, sitting at typewriters in an office etc. etc............i.e. about secular matters witnessing to the sacred of the secular.

I know that we are at this point we seem to be short of religious vocations- and here in Australia those we do have rarely wear a habit and even more rarely any sort of veil.  That is our now, not necessarily our future.

[PhuturePriest]

​I hold that contemplative life is indeed our powerhouse of prayer and without prayer we can do nothing. The subject of this thread is not about the validity of the contemplative vocation, which is not questioned in any way - nor is the 'active' religious nor priesthood in any way questioned.   I guess what I might be questioning possibly is the way of life itself, how it is lived out, and how it might speak more clearly to not only the laity but to the general society as well - as well as possibly benefit those within the life.  These are only questions!

When religious life was first defined within The Church, it was the days when 'the world' was regarded as sinful and contrary to The Gospel, working against The Gospel - and to be rejected.  Certainly then, and back then, religious life seen to be separated completely from the world had complete validity.  Back then, I guess the laity were left in the world as some sort of second class citizens in The Church - floundering in an evil world striving to save their own souls.  I think we still living with a layover per se of that incorrect thinking and the result.

Again, I am not making absolute statements, rather asking questions. 

​The world, insofar as the culture, should still be regarded as sinful and contrary to the Gospel. In fact, in 2,000 years, none of the sins have changed or diminished. They have simply become easier to commit and harder to avoid, making cloistered religious life more relevant than ever.

[BarbTherese]

​The world, insofar as the culture, should still be regarded as sinful and contrary to the Gospel. In fact, in 2,000 years, none of the sins have changed or diminished. They have simply become easier to commit and harder to avoid, making cloistered religious life more relevant than ever.

​Rather I think that the world and the secular, culture, created by God to give Glory to Him very often today is rebelling.  It is a work of Grace to strive to orientate the world (or the secular and culture) back to giving Glory to God and its' original and rightful purpose - and to strive to discern the means.

There is no secular nor culture without people - and Jesus loved and died for all.

Edited April 17, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

​The world, insofar as the culture, should still be regarded as sinful and contrary to the Gospel. In fact, in 2,000 years, none of the sins have changed or diminished. They have simply become easier to commit and harder to avoid, making cloistered religious life more relevant than ever.

​All due respect, but the above does worry me or concern me.  It is still that mentality that the world and the secular, culture, is somehow intrinsically and forever evil and beyond redemption - to be escaped and with cloistered religious life regarded as a valid means.

If the mentality expressed in your post were so, we would not have lay saints:

ht

ACTOR:

Saint Genesius of Rome
Saint Porphyrius the Martyr

ART COLLECTOR:

Blessed William Howard

ARTIST:

Saint Tutilo of Saint Gall

BARBER:

Venerable Pierre Toussaint

BLACKSMITH:

Blessed Nuntius Sulprizio
Saint Bonavita of Lugo

BOOKSELLER:

Blessed James Duckett
Saint John of God

BUSINESSMAN:

Blessed Edmund Rice
Saint Joseph of Arimathea
Saint Margaret Clitherow
Saint Peter Ou

CALLIGRAPHER:

Saint Ahmed

CARPENTER:

Blessed Luigi Maria Monti
Blessed Pedro Calungsod
Saint Joseph
Saint Michael Kozaki

CATECHIST:

Blessed Leo Tanaka

CIVIL ENGINEER:

Blessed Alberto Marvelli

CLOTHES CLEANER:

Saint Anastasius
Saint Auxentius of Epirus

COBBLER:

Blessed Theobald Roggeri

COURT REPORTER:

Saint Cassian of Tangiers

COWBOY:

Saint Caedmon

DANCER:

Saint Philemon
Saint Pelagia the Penitent

DOCTOR:

Blessed Ladislao Batthyány-Strattmann
Saint Caesarius of Nanzianzen
Saint Gianna Beretta Molla
Saint Giuse Hoàng Luong Canh
Saint Rene Goupil

ENGINEER:

Blessed Vicente Vilar David

FARMER:

Blessed Albert of Bergamo
Saint Antôn Nguyen Ðích
Saint Isidore
Saint Juan Diego

GARDENER:

Saint Serenus

HERDSMAN:

Saint Adolofu Mukasa Ludigo

HOUSEWIFE:

Blessed Anne Marie Taigi
Blessed Eurosia Fabris

JOURNALIST:

Blessed Manuel Lozano Garrido

JUDGE:

St. Nicholas of Flue

LAWYER:

Blessed Contardo Ferrini
Saint Joseph Moscati
Saint Thomas More

MECHANIC:

Venerable Giunio Tinarelli

MERCHANT:

Saint Godric of Finchale

MIDWIFE:

Saint Margaret of Cortona

MINER:

Blessed Nikolaus Gross

MUSICIAN:

Saint Philemon

NURSE:

Blessed Luigi Maria Monti

OFFICE CLERK:

Blessed Carlos Santiago

PHILOSOPHER:

Saint Justin Martyr

POLITICIAN:

Blessed Charles the Good
Saint Bruno of Ebsdorf

PRISON GUARD:

Saint Artemius of Rome

PROFESSOR:

Blessed John Storey

PUBLISHER:

Blessed William Carter

SCHOOL MASTER:

Blessed George Swallowell
Blessed John Bodey

SEAMSTRESS:

Saint Seraphina

SHOEMAKER:

Blessed Henry the Shoemaker

SOLDIER:

Saint Besas of Alexandria

STONEWORKER:

Saint Antoninus of Syria

STUDENT:

Saint Dominic Savio

TAILOR:

Saint Homobonus

TEACHER:

Blessed Contardo Ferrini

WRITER:

Blessed Raymond Lull
Saint Prosper of Aquitaine

YOUNG BOY:

Blessed Francisco Marto
Saint Dominic Savio

YOUNG GIRL:

Blessed Albertina Berkenbrock
Blessed Chiara Badano
Saint Lucy of Syracuse
Saint Maria Goretti

tp://laysaints.org/list-of-lay-saints/

 

Edited April 17, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[PhuturePriest]

​Rather I think that the world and the secular, culture, created by God to give Glory to Him very often today is rebelling.  It is a work of Grace to strive to orientate the world (or the secular and culture) back to giving Glory to God and its' original and rightful purpose - and to strive to discern the means.

There is no secular nor culture without people - and Jesus loved and died for all.

​Where did I say that the world is irrevocably evil and beyond redemption? I said the world is currently very dark and very against the will of God. I never said we should all therefore give the world the finger as we piously retreat to our monasteries. I'm getting a degree in theology to prepare myself for ministry work for the specific purpose of helping save as many people from this forsaken culture as possible -- to go against the tide and one day, God-willing, we can all collectively change this culture and orient it towards God. But I think it rather foolish to say that this culture is not getting more and more hostile towards Christianity and what it stands for, and we should recognize that it is getting worse and will only get worse over time, until finally a period begins when the world comes back to its senses. Until then, we are of course obligated to try and do as much as we can.

Edited April 17, 2015 by PhuturePriest

[BarbTherese]

​Where did I say that the world is irrevocably evil and beyond redemption? I said the world is currently very dark and very against the will of God. I never said we should all therefore give the world the finger as we piously retreat to our monasteries. I'm getting a degree in theology to prepare myself for ministry work for the specific purpose of helping save as many people from this forsaken culture as possible -- to go against the tide and one day, God-willing, we can all collectively change this culture and orient it towards God. But I think it rather foolish to say that this culture is not getting more and more hostile towards Christianity and what it stands for, and we should recognize that it is getting worse and will only get worse over time, until finally a period begins when the world comes back to its senses. Until then, we are of course obligated to try and do as much as we can.

​ Well then PP............... I can certainly rejoice that I interpreted you wrongly and rejoice too that I need apologise for my error -  and that we completely agree and that we all, no matter our call and vocation, have a part to play - each in our own way be it ever so small or minute -  in working with Grace towards re-orientating society and culture back to its rightful purpose and away from what seems a spiral against its' true purpose for which it has been created.   Wise to remember for me too that Pope Benedict told us that the only thing we must fear are the sins WITHIN The Church. http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1104798.htm

As an aside:  It might be a difficult quest, but not a hopeless one, for with Grace all things are possible. Jesus did not live and die foolishly in living and dying for all mankind, every single person.  Each one of us regardless is a beloved of The Lord.

And if my task is very small and minute, nondescript compared to that of others and of the problem discerned, then I take great heart from today's Gospel (17th April 2015 for me) and the multiplication of the loaves and fishes.  And also this:

Matthew Ch19 " And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?

And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible."

I take great heart from the stories of the Old Testament and the Israelite people, who journeyed stumbling, falling (sometimes shockingly so) and rising again over an exceptionally long period of some possibly around 2000 years - and their Faith in the Covenant remained alive as a potential no matter what happened.  A great witness for me today.

Edited April 17, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Correction.  Israel's Faith in the Covenant was not a potential, it was an assured Covenant.

[oremus1]

​

Yours is definitely a vocation though, a well researched one. Love all of your posts. Wish you would write a book or something

[BarbTherese]

Thank you.  I very much doubt at this point there will be a book.