OF vs EF Divine Office?

[puellapaschalis]

My conscience feels very troubled at using the OF breviary. like if it is a cop out for those who cant be bothered. all of my traditional friends will think I am a spiritual weakling. some of them even call it the 'McOffice' or 'Breviary-lite'.  it does seem much holier to pray a longer and more complicated office.

I am so confused.

I also feel like I would be severing all ties with our forefathers. losing the calendar, the liturgy and not the Office, and latin. this is all so woesome

what else would you be doing in the time you would save by saying the shorter breviary?

 

​A few years ago I switched from the OF breviary to the traditional Benedictine books. Right now I pray a modified, vernacular, Office in common. It tires me out - see Sr MC's point above - and ideally I'd be praying with the trad OSB books. But sacrifices are part of life, and sometimes you have to sacrifice being able to sacrifice more of your time in order to say Office.

However, if you are not able to pray the traditional Office, of whatever stripe, it is ok to pray some other decent way ("Pray as you can and not as you can't"), assuming you are not canonically obliged to some particular form. I'm told that God sees our longing for the older forms and books all the more when we are unable to use them. If that's what you have to use, then don't be discouraged.

[oremus1]

 

So is the Novus Ordo breciary only for people who cant pray the traditional office?

For those who are not willing to make the sacrifice of time to pray the traditional office?

Therefore it really is a second option and a breviary lite. is that right?

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

The Church has many times reformed the breviary and the main reason has been to make it more "manageable" to pray. Over time it gets loaded down with extra feasts, memorials, etc. This isn't something that happened just at Vatican II. The Divine Office is the OFFICIAL PRAYER OF THE CHURCH. The Church has the right and responsibility to determined its content.

The main reason for the Divine Office is to sanctify the day. The Divine Office wasn't invented by the Church but comes out of the Jewish practice to sanctify the hours. It can't always be done but if one is deputed to pray the Office by the Church one should be making an effort to pray the hours at the times specified and not just "getting it in" as though it were private prayer. This is what was happening before Vatican II to make it manageable. This is a really important aspect of the reform of the Office.

The reform was geared primarily for priests whose days are filled with many pastoral duties. For those of us in the monasteries it does sort of "limp" a bit.

The Office is not supposed to be an endurance test. It is supposed to be the way we participate in the praise and worship of God that the angels do standing before God. The Office is GIVEN to us by the Church. it's not our personal, private prayer.

Oremus1, you asked if there was more GRACE given for praying the EF Office. Later you gave the opinion that, "additional discipline and time and effort of saying the EF breviary must surely merit something." Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. However, we can't earn grace. Grace is God's free gift of his Divine LIfe in which we participate through our baptism. We can become more receptive and open to his Divine Life in us through the life of virtue but God doesn't give only a little bit of himself! He gives himself totally to us!

St. Thomas, in answering the question as to whether something is more meritorious because it is more difficult says, "The "good" has, more than the "difficult," to do with the reason of merit and virtue. Therefore it does not follow that whatever is more difficult is more meritorious, but only what is more difficult, and at the same time better."   II-II Question 27, Art 8.

I would really be at peace with praying the Office as it is given to us by the Church today. If you do just a little research on the history of the Office you will see how many changes it has gone through. The Office as prayed in say, 1955 is not the office that was prayed in 1855 because St. Pius X made sweeping reforms of the breviary. The calendar has constantly gone through reforms as well. This was especially so with the Dominicans! The saints were constantly being moved around, dropped out of the office calendar, put back in! For example, did you know that Bl. Imelda used to be celebrated in SEPTEMBER? Then after St. Pius X changed the age one could receive communion it was moved to MAY as she is the patroness of 1st Communicants!

Also, many communities used to sing most of the Office recto-tono so as to manage to get it done! I was so surprised when I visited a Solesmes monastery of nuns how they chanted Matins and Lauds recto-tono and they just whipped through it at 80mph! Each part just ran into the next. I wasn't impressed.

Holiness is about grace and virtue not about how long one prays something or the difficulty. And as someone who chants and sings the entire office each day I would strongly disagree that it is breviary-lite!
 

[Maggyie]

Oremus don't fall into the trap of believing that God is more pleased by prayers that are complicated and long or hard to say. This is scrupulosity, it is not Catholic. He is equally pleased by long prayers and short prayers that are said from the heart. He is BEST pleased by the simple prayer of a child.

A good example is the Holy Rosary, with the Luminous Mysteries the Rosary is now longer and more complicated. Does this mean the traditional Rosary has fewer graces since it takes shorter to say? Of course not. 

[oremus1]

Oremus don't fall into the trap of believing that God is more pleased by prayers that are complicated and long or hard to say. This is scrupulosity, it is not Catholic. He is equally pleased by long prayers and short prayers that are said from the heart. He is BEST pleased by the simple prayer of a child.

A good example is the Holy Rosary, with the Luminous Mysteries the Rosary is now longer and more complicated. Does this mean the traditional Rosary has fewer graces since it takes shorter to say? Of course not.

​But I suppose the question would be, what is someone doing that is more important than praying the EF Office, that makes them need a shorter one?

[Nunsuch]

Well, for example, an apostolic religious who is doing her/his ministry--such as teaching, nursing, whatever--under obedience, is doing something more "important" than praying formal prayers, since that is what they are SUPPOSED to be doing. That is what the vow of obedience is all about!  Also, keep in mind that the EF is just that--EXTRAORDINARY.  If the Church thought it was "more meritorious," don't you think that would be the ORDINARY form? What "feels good" to you is fine, but it is not necessarily "best" for everyone (maybe not even for you). I think we are meant to pray in many ways: not just formal prayer such as the office, or devotional prayers like the rosary, but also through contemplation, seeking and doing the will of God, and so on. Sometimes prayer is serving Jesus in the form of our sisters and brothers. Do not fall into the trap of legalism and pride. I think Sr. Mary Catharine's postings have so much wisdom to them, and she obviously knows from experience what she is talking about!  

[Gabriela]

what else would you be doing in the time you would save by saying the shorter breviary?

Umm... putting food on the table?

 

I'm starting to feel that the OP was (deliberately?) misleading...

[Gabriela]

For anyone who's starting to feel bad about their daily prayer routine as a result of this thread, I would just like to publicly announce that I do not even pray the Office. I pray the morning and evening prayer from the Magnificat, which takes about 10 minutes each—15 if you put in a really long personal intention before the Our Father. In fact, I almost always pray evening prayer at 3 in the morning, lying down in bed.

Sometimes, when things are really hectic, I can't even manage to pray both of these prayers each day.

And to that, I would like to add that a Carthusian nun once lit up like a firefly in utter delight when I told her that I pray the morning and evening prayer from the Magnificat. She was positively giddy, God bless her.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Gabriela

[oremus1]

For anyone who's starting to feel bad about their daily prayer routine as a result of this thread, I would just like to publicly announce that I do not even pray the Office. I pray the morning and evening prayer from the Magnificat, which takes about 10 minutes each—15 if you put in a really long personal intention before the Our Father. In fact, I almost always pray evening prayer at 3 in the morning, lying down in bed.

Sometimes, when things are really hectic, I can't even manage to pray both of these prayers each day.

And to that, I would like to add that a Carthusian nun once lit up like a firefly in utter delight when I told her that I pray the morning and evening prayer from the Magnificat. She was positively giddy, God bless her.

​People on this thread should not feel bad.

This thread was for people obliged in some way to say the Office, as to which one they use

It was more that I felt bad to switch to the OF office - because it is shorter and easier and prime is suppressed. i am pretty sure all of the traddys will say I am a modernist if I do.

I might say the OF office for a couple of days to try it out

[Gabriela]

​This thread was for people obliged in some way to say the Office, as to which one they use

​Oh, well, I am glad you made that clear!

I wouldn't worry about the "traddys" if I were you. People on the extreme ends of movements will always define everything in terms of "us" and "them". (I say that as a trad myself, just not one on the extreme end of anything. Unless you count Jesus. )

If you are doing what the Church approves, you can't go wrong. And the Church approves the OF Office!

[Maggyie]

​People on this thread should not feel bad.

This thread was for people obliged in some way to say the Office, as to which one they use

It was more that I felt bad to switch to the OF office - because it is shorter and easier and prime is suppressed. i am pretty sure all of the traddys will say I am a modernist if I do.

I might say the OF office for a couple of days to try it out

You must understand, someone who would call you a modernist for such a thing is close to heresy themselves! Don't let such people interfere in your prayer life. 

[beatitude]

I just want to say here that as a member of secular institute I am obliged to pray just one of the Hours each day. (We can pray more if we want to, but this is our constitutional requirement for the Divine Office.) For me that's Vespers. I pray then because the evening is the best time I have to focus on the Office - I'm not likely to be disturbed, it can flow into my other devotions, and I love the Magnificat. It has profound and special meaning for me. Other members of my institute pray the whole of the Divine Office (especially the retired women). We have all made the choice that is best for our current circumstance. No one is being 'holier' than any other in her decision. We have to remember that prayer is not so much about what we give to God, but what God gives to us - and he does not need Latin or a longer Office to make himself known, he does not need any specific method, all he needs is our humility and trust and our willingness to come to him. And people come by many different roads. That's OK.

When I was working in a college for young adults with Down's Syndrome, a student asked me who Jesus was. I paused, racking my brains for a way to explain it in a way that a young man with severe intellectual disabilities would understand. While I was thinking, another student, this one from a Catholic home, turned round from where he was washing up and said simply, "He's my friend." Then he calmly went back to washing the plates. He's never prayed the Office in his life, yet that day he showed to me that he has a better grasp on the Gospel than I have. He wants Christ and that is all anyone ever needs to pray.

Be very wary of choosing a way of prayer just because of what others might think of you if you pray differently. Jesus warned about Pharisees standing up on the street corners and declaiming aloud in order to attract attention over their great holiness. He instructed us to pray in "the secret place" - that could be the privacy of our room, or just the cloister of our own hearts. Once we're there, who is to know what breviary we're using and why? And what does it matter?

[puellapaschalis]

Also, keep in mind that the EF is just that--EXTRAORDINARY.  If the Church thought it was "more meritorious," don't you think that would be the ORDINARY form?

​This is not the sense in which the Church currently uses the words 'Ordinary' and 'Extraordinary' in the context of the different forms of Mass in the Roman Rite (by extension we can apply them to the Office too). It is Extraordinary in the sense it is particular, unusual, special, and valued, not least because of its greater antiquity than the forms that came into use late in the 20thC. It is currently used by a (significant, perhaps?) minority. God willing that will not last and the older forms will be more and more widespread. The terms are descriptive, not prescriptive.

For the record: I consider myself a Trad(dy) and I don't have an opinion on the worth of an individual solely based upon his preference for one form or the other, let alone which form he is more practically able to use based on his commitments and so on (i.e. as a consequence of things outside of his own control).

Outside of that disclaimer: I agree with the OP that the suppression of Prime in particular was strange. Its length (nice and short) and relative stability (not very many changing parts each day) made it ideal for busy people who wanted to join in the Office before their work began.

[truthfinder]

​People on this thread should not feel bad.

This thread was for people obliged in some way to say the Office, as to which one they use

It was more that I felt bad to switch to the OF office - because it is shorter and easier and prime is suppressed. i am pretty sure all of the traddys will say I am a modernist if I do.

I might say the OF office for a couple of days to try it out

​As a traddy myself, I'd have very choice words for anyone who went on a McBreviary rant (which would get me banned here for a couple days at least).  I think fidelity to the prayer (as one not obligated to pray it), is the most important.  

Thinking of what Sr. MC said about recto-tono vs. fully sung, I've sometimes wondered to myself if I could be a trad Benny because they sing it all, or a trad-Carmelite because it's recto.  So much singing vs. so little singing.  Also the time thing, a priest who enunciates every syllable of the EF mass is just as annoying as one who flies through and leaves you lost (I've actually experience the former on more occasions than the latter).  I'm not entirely sure there's anything wrong with prayers said quickly, though sincerely - but obviously, I'm not a nun.

[The Historian]

Well, for example, an apostolic religious who is doing her/his ministry--such as teaching, nursing, whatever--under obedience, is doing something more "important" than praying formal prayers, since that is what they are SUPPOSED to be doing.

Our first obligation is to God.  Our second obligation is to our neighbour.  We fulfil our obligation to God in the sacred liturgy - whether Mass or the Divine Office.  For clerics and religious, it's their job to offer the public worship of the Church.  There is no more important thing than this.  The Divine Office isn't just a "formal" prayer.  It is corporate prayer of the Church united with Christ.  No act of contemplation, no rosary, no good work will ever rival it.  It is on a whole different level.

This wouldn't really be a problem, in my view, if the Church would just dispense seculars and actives from their obligation to the Office.  Just say Lauds, Vespers and Compline and everyone will be happy and the liturgy won't be butchered to fit into their time tables.​

[oremus1]

Ok so in your collective opinions, if someone was obliged to say some of the Office, is it better to:

a) say / chant Lauds, Vespers and Compline in a reverent way in Latin

b) say the entirety of the OF office

The other thing is, many laypeople do not understand the vows. some were scandalised when I said I prayed the same number of rosaries as a normal person.

[The Historian]

Ok so in your collective opinions, if someone was obliged to say some of the Office, is it better to:

a) say / chant Lauds, Vespers and Compline in a reverent way in Latin

b) say the entirety of the OF office

The other thing is, many laypeople do not understand the vows. some were scandalised when I said I prayed the same number of rosaries as a normal person.

​I am firmly of the opinion that the Extraordinary Form is the superior liturgical expression of the Latin Church.  But you can't quantify liturgy like this.  Yes, it is always preferable for the liturgy to be sung.  But you can only compare it hour by hour.

[Swami Mommy]

The Historian wrote:  Our first obligation is to God.  Our second obligation is to our neighbour.  We fulfil our obligation to God in the sacred liturgy - whether Mass or the Divine Office.  For clerics and religious, it's their job to offer the public worship of the Church.  There is no more important thing than this.  The Divine Office isn't just a "formal" prayer.  It is corporate prayer of the Church united with Christ.  No act of contemplation, no rosary, no good work will ever rival it.  It is on a whole different level.
 

I am not a Catholic, so please excuse me if my perspective is somewhat different than yours.  In my own spiritual journey, I have learned that while my first obligation is to God, He is not separate from my neighbor nor from any other thing around me, and so therefore to seek and honor God first is to seek and find His presence in all things, not just in the formal rituals established by an institutional Church.  Reciting a rote prayer, whether the long or the short version, over serving and loving God in my fellow man and through the faithful and wholehearted execution of my daily activities, means nothing if I pray out of a sense of obligation to ritualized form over the spirit it is meant to inspire.  Someone mentioned that reciting the Divine Office was originally taken from a Jewish tradition of sanctifying the day through regular remembrance of God, which I think is a lovely way to bring one's attention back to the heart of gratitude and devotion.  So, if I WERE to repeat the Divine Office, I personally would choose that version which does not lead me to pray from a stance of rigid adherence to the 'politically correct way', but which, rather, inspires me to feel blessed by and grateful for the opportunity to kneel to God within.  The spirit of the law will always be more important to me than the letter of the law.  I seriously doubt that God as Love cares which form of the Divine Office is used (or any other form of prayer for that matter), as long as we keep our hearts soft and open with love for Him in all we do.

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

For a really good history of the development of the Divine Office in the Church read Fr. Taft's: The Liturgy of the Hours in the East and West.
It really makes one see how the Divine Office has changed and developed century by century. http://www.amazon.com/The-Liturgy-Hours-East-West/dp/0814614051

[passerby]

Personally I don't care whether a person says the EF or the OF, but what bothers me is when someone makes a judgement about saying one or the other. In this case, saying things like about saying the OF being against one's conscience or the EF being superior. That's not for us to decide. The Church has laid out what is required (for religious, those who have made promises, etc) and what is acceptable. It's beautiful that the Church has embraced both. Individual preference is one thing but thinking somehow that one is more meritorious than another is, I think, dangerous. God doesn't answer us because of what we may do or say or sing (in whatever language) - He owes us nothing. If our goodness was determined by some formula, then everyone should be saying BOTH the EF and OF! To think that somehow someone is better or holier because they say longer and more difficult prayers is ridiculous. 

Just my 2 cents,

B