Theoketos Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 I know that it breaks her, the Mother of Christ, to see people use her as a tool to their propaganda. In all her humility I know that she only wants us to go to Christ. Anything else is not devotion to Mary, but idol worship, which she tries to stop often in her visions.
foundsheep Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 Something that I think is being missed in this entire subject is the fact that when Mexico became a socialist republic(ie.. the times that devoloped the revolutions creating havoc) it banned Catholicism. The only thing many of theses people had about the church was the TILMA. They would pray that Mary would help her children from these socialist heathens. To try and blame these people for what a country did to them is horrid. VIVA MEXICO!
Child of God Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 About 10 or so years ago, I remember my sister-in-law talking about some lady in the South (I think Georgia) who was seeing apparitions on a regular basis. Haven't heard anything about it lately though. Mary has a unique place in the hearts of all Christians. Her obedience to God is an inspiration to many non-Catholics as well. We do love her for her testimony to the rest of the world and I for one hope to see her one day in heaven.
P3chrmd Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 Oh you will defenetley see her in heaven...she is sitting at the right hand of Jesus on the throne wearing a crown! After all she is queen of heaven!
jmjtina Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 Where's that article "There's something about Mary?" That was a good read and brought to light how Mary "magnifies the Lord". Good stuff. Our Lady of Guadalupe, Pray for us!
jmjtina Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 i have yet to see a devotion book to say "[color=red]CAUTION[/color], do NOT overdo this devotion and prayers"
theculturewarrior Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 You know, protestants often go on about how Catholics worship Mary (and not just protestants, I have met people who claimed to be Catholic make this accusation). But ANYTHING can be an idol, and I find protestants are just as proned to idolatry as Catholics. Perhaps the idol is money, or man. Idolatry is something every denom has a few members doing.
CreepyCrawler Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 keep in mind that in mexican culture, the mother is soooo loved and sooo important. then transfer that to the mother of all mothers: the mother of God and the mother of all catholics. then you will understand a bit more why our lady of guadalupe is so important to people in mexico and beyond.
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Posted June 14, 2004 First of all, I copy/pasted the comments of another guy onto my first post. The dude in question was a Protestant, however, his comments seemed to exemplify how mystified I was at the time.... I still don't get it. I mean, I'm fine with Marian devotion, but I draw the line at saying "We can surrender our whole lives to Mary" etc... This is from the "Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary" [quote]Virgin of virgins, I choose you today as my [b]sovereign[/b], my queen, my empress, and I declare myself, as I am in fact, your servant and your [b]slave.[/b] I invoke your royal name of Mary, that is, sovereign Lady, and beg of you with all my heart to admit me into the privileged circle of your family as one of your servants, to do your will as a humble slave and loving child. ... During my whole life rule over me as your servant and slave. At the hour of my death, as I hope for at the end of my loving servitude among the privileged members of your family, receive my soul and escort it into the presence of God[/quote] I have problems with the words "sovereign" "slave" and "servant" in this office, especially the first. Christ the King is undoubtedly sovereign, but His Queen has power only insofar as she has it from Him - thus, she is not sovereign. (I should note that this document carries the Imprimatur and the Nihil Obstat)
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Posted June 14, 2004 (edited) [quote name='jmjtina' date='Jun 13 2004, 04:15 PM'] i have yet to see a devotion book to say "[color=red]CAUTION[/color], do NOT overdo this devotion and prayers" [/quote] Well, perhaps it ought to be there, Tina. I was talking to this one lady in my Godmothers church and she couldn't shut up the whole time about Mary - she didn't mention our Glorious Lord [b]once. [/b] Edited June 14, 2004 by ICTHUS
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 Icthus, just a few things: [quote]Christ the King is undoubtedly sovereign, but His Queen has power only insofar as she has it from Him - thus, she is not sovereign[/quote] It is true, she is not sovereign, but we also must acknowledge that she has a unique closeness with the Trinity, being the spouse of the Spirit and the Mother of Christ. We know, via dogmatic teaching, that the Trinity is a full giving and pouring out of love, from each person to each person. God infinitely loves the son, the son infinitly loves the father, and that infinite love, IS the spirit. It is not a far leap to say that Mary, who loves her son Perfectly, and does the will of the Father Explicetly, and is open to the Spirit Absolutely, would not share in the authority of heaven. I am not saying that she is a "fourth" person in the Trinity, she is not. However, as you said, the Queen has power insofar as it is given to her by Christ. Is it really that hard to imagine that a loving son would not share everything he has with an obediant and submissive mother? Especially when that son is Christ... -Your Brother in Christ, Jeff
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]Is it really that hard to imagine that a loving son would not share everything he has with an obediant and submissive mother? Especially when that son is Christ...[/quote] Perhaps - however, to get from this, to Mary being sovereign requires huge leaps of logic. Yes, she has great power and holiness, but she is not [b]sovereign[/b]
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 I acknowledge your dilemma, though I don't personally have a problem believing that Christ shares everything with Mary, including sovereign authority. However, I would also like to point out (don't interpret this as chastising) that is also requires HUGE leaps of faith to think that Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats are given out idly. The Church is, despite criticism from all sides, the vessel of Christ's truth. The way I like to think of it when I run into problems like the one you're having is that I have the "impressive" wisdom of 18 years to work with (self-directed sarcasm), while the Church has 2000 years of the Holy Spirit directing its judgements. If the prayer truly has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, there cannot be any error in it. Also, it should also be considered that the last shall be first, and Mary was the humblest servant of God ever. If we take Christ at his word, then Mary's reward for service in this life is authority in heaven, isn't it?
ICTHUS Posted June 14, 2004 Author Posted June 14, 2004 (edited) [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 14 2004, 01:41 PM'] I acknowledge your dilemma, though I don't personally have a problem believing that Christ shares everything with Mary, including sovereign authority. However, I would also like to point out (don't interpret this as chastising) that is also requires HUGE leaps of faith to think that Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats are given out idly. The Church is, despite criticism from all sides, the vessel of Christ's truth. The way I like to think of it when I run into problems like the one you're having is that I have the "impressive" wisdom of 18 years to work with (self-directed sarcasm), while the Church has 2000 years of the Holy Spirit directing its judgements. If the prayer truly has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, there cannot be any error in it. [/quote] [quote]I acknowledge your dilemma, though I don't personally have a problem believing that Christ shares everything with Mary, including sovereign authority.[/quote] Why? There's only one Person described as Sovereign in Scripture, and that's God. I can understand the typology behind the immaculate conception, and I do not deny it. But I draw the line at sovereignty. [quote]Also, it should also be considered that the last shall be first, and Mary was the humblest servant of God ever. If we take Christ at his word, then Mary's reward for service in this life is authority in heaven, isn't it?[/quote] Yes, she has authority, [b]but only insofar as it is given her by her Son![/b] This prayer, in declaring Mary 'sovereign', basically elevates her past the level of a highly glorified CREATURE and makes her a fourth person of the "Blessed Quadrinity" Also, you contradicted yourself. [quote name='Jeff']I acknowledge your dilemma, though I don't personally have a problem [b]believing that Christ shares everything with Mary, including sovereign authority[/b].[/quote][quote] It is true, [b]she is not sovereign[/b], but we also must acknowledge that she has a unique closeness with the Trinity, being the spouse of the Spirit and the Mother of Christ. [/quote] Edited June 14, 2004 by ICTHUS
the lumberjack Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 Icthus, I had brought this up before...as to how Latin American Catholicism is what it is...and was summarily quieted for it. I'm glad that you see at least a little bit of what I do. If I'm wrong as to your inquiry, forgive me...but I do see the extreme marian devotion in a great majority of my people in Mexico. God bless. Christ first.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 just to clarify what may seem to be a "contradiction" in my argument, your last little bit is really a question of escalology, that is, the underlying meaning of a word or phrase. In quote 1, I was trying to say "Mary is not THE sovereign" In quote 2, I was trying to say that "THE sovereign, Christ, has granted Mary a share in His sovereignty in heaven" I didn't make it clear, and I sincerely apologize. Let me also draw an analogy: There is a King in a land who is sovereign. Beneath him is a feudal Lord. The Lord swears absolute fealty to the King, and all that he owns is ultimately the King's. However, the Lord is still sovereign. So is the King. If I am a slave to my sovereign Lord, then I am, ultimately, a slave to THE sovereign, who is the King. My service to the sovereign Lord, who is granted his sovereignty by the King, is viewed by the King, and rightly so, as service to him. Thus, Mary's sovereignty does not threaten Christ's and neither does service to her negate service to Him hope that helps clarify, and I'm really sorry for the confusion! - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 carp, flip those quotes, I hope you know what I mean, lol Sorry!
theculturewarrior Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 [quote]as my sovereign, my queen, my empress, and I declare myself, as I am in fact, your servant and your slave. [/quote] Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Queen = Sovereign. Jesus = King. Mary = Queen. Jesus is fully human and fully divine, so of course he is going to honor his Mother. What's the mother of a king? You guessed it, a queen, AKA a Sovereign. Can the scrupulosity folks.
Sammy Blaze Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 14 2004, 01:58 PM'] Icthus, I had brought this up before...as to how Latin American Catholicism is what it is...and was summarily quieted for it. I'm glad that you see at least a little bit of what I do. If I'm wrong as to your inquiry, forgive me...but I do see the extreme marian devotion in a great majority of my people in Mexico. God bless. Christ first. [/quote] CHRIST FIRST, through any means necessary, including his mother
the lumberjack Posted June 14, 2004 Posted June 14, 2004 nope...Christ first. alone. Christ. the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with groanings that can not be comprehended. hmmm...would seem as if God's own Spirit is working with us in our relationship with Christ...and not Mary. Christ first, with no middle men...or women.
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