Trangender identity/language

[KnightofChrist]

People here seem to be conflating two different circumstances. The first is when you personally know someone who has transitioned (which seems to be the situation the OP has in mind), the second is where you run into a woman who seems a little too buff and you're like, "hmmm....I wonder...."

In the latter case where we're simply lacking in information, it is, as a rule, charitable to avoid rash judgments and to take people as they present themselves in good faith.

The former case is rather different, and I admit to not having dealt with it. I don't think we should be cooperating with someone else's pathology, but you shouldn't be a jerk about it either. You should ideally be able to make it clear to them that you disagree with their self-identification out of a concern for their well being rather than that of spite. Public spectacle and ideologues aside, people with gender dysphoria are genuinely hurting.
 

​I'll agree to that.

[KnightofChrist]

​But there is right to know.  Even the most basic theologins can state that.  That's what makes it OK for someone to not confess outright to hiding Jews in their basment when Jews are in their attic.

Unless you're a bouncer or selling alchol or writing a contract, you have no need or right to know someone's age.

I struggle to think of a situation where you'd really need to ask about gender, short of being a "bouncer" at a gym changing room or I dunno...

It's just not necessary.  Certinally not in the regular workforce, or shopping or 99% of activities.

That and "actual gender" for a gender dysmorphic people is probmatic becuase they believe they are the opposite gender and would subsequently answer...which, unless their genetalas are ovious would still force your hand to use what they provided, regardless of what you thought.

​But we are talking about those that present themselves as one gender or age one day and then presenting themselves as another gender or age the next. I don't believe "right to know" applies here. It's simply asking which one of the person's publicly declared statements is true or which one of their publicly revealed presentations is true.

Would you go along with someone wanting to be refereed to as a dead historical person or a fictional character? Or do you only except these types of things when it is sexual in nature?

[hotpink]

​But we are talking about those that present themselves as one gender or age one day and then presenting themselves as another gender or age the next. I don't believe "right to know" applies here. It's simply asking which one of the person's publicly declared statements is true or which one of their publicly revealed presentations is true.

Would you go along with someone wanting to be refereed to as a dead historical person or a fictional character? Or do you only except these types of things when it is sexual in nature?

​If someone was so delusional that they presented themselves as say Abrhaham Lincolin, then I would probably call the cops for everyone's saftey.

But like I said before, sometimes you have no idea of someones "born" gender.

[Era Might]

​If someone was so delusional that they presented themselves as say Abrhaham Lincolin, then I would probably call the cops for everyone's saftey.

But like I said before, sometimes you have no idea of someones "born" gender.

​Not a good comparison, because they aren't saying "I'm THAT woman" but "I'm A woman." Many people might say "I'm A Lincoln" or "I'm A Caesar," putting themselves in the same category, not claiming to be the person.

[Nihil Obstat]

What about if someone wanted to claim identity with something that does not exist in reality? Or at least something clearly non-living? I am curious how far anyone is willing to push these identification issues. Seriously, is it strictly limited to humans? If so, why? What if someone is absolutely adamant that they are a dog in a human body? Or a cucumber? Or a fifth-dimensional energy-being?

Edited June 4, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[Era Might]

If you can claim you are a prophet from an invisible deity who has spoken to you and sent you on a mission, is there anything you can't claim? If someone claims to be a Mormon, what else are you going to do but smile and say okay.

[veritasluxmea]

If someone if living under the delusion they are the opposite sex/otherkin (yes nihil, thinking you're part animal, angel, or even an entity is a thing)/whatever, I'd roll with it. Simile and nod. Actually I have known neighbors in the past and currently know someone who is obviously transgender, and that's what I do. 

However, just because I go along with them absolutely doesn't make them what they think they are. I don't think "Caitlyn" Jenner is a women. I'm just not qualified to help them address their issues based on the short amount of contact I have with them. If they asked me I would explain that I still think they are ___ but I sympathize with what they're dealing with and am willing to call them and treat them as "X" if it makes them feel more comfortable. 

For a family member it'd be different, because there is some more responsibility involved. Depending on if it's an immediate family member, I would ask them how they feel about this, why they are doing this, what they want. And really listen and see where I can meet and help them. I would explain that I still think, and always will think, that they are ___. I don't think they will be able to live a good and happy life by forcing themselves into living a lie, and I would want them to really work to address the root of their issues, and I want to help them do that. It's the work of a lifetime but it's worth it. From there it all depends on if they're set on transitioning, if they're still trying to figure it out, if they are just confused, if they want help/don't want help- based on where they are I might need to get more involved or not. I may or may not address them how they want, depending on our relationship and where they are. And I'd pray. I have been praying for "Caitlyn", maybe we should start a prayer intention for them on phatmass? 

[Clare Brigid]

Folks, I am a trans woman (a male-to-female transsexual).  I am fully transitioned, living as a woman, having obtained a legal name change and a name and gender designation change in all my documentation (birth certificate, driver's license, Social Security, U.S. passport).

I just want to remind you guys that I'm here and that I'm willing to answer respectful questions in this thread or by p.m.  I'll answer them, but I'm not interested in debating.

 

[PhuturePriest]

I would call the person in question by their chosen name so as not to be douchy when speaking to them, but I would avoid saying he/her, because I wouldn't want to at least seemingly support their gender identify confusion. Names are very interchangeable, and there are many names that we use now for women that used to be for men, and vice-versa. However, calling a man a woman and a woman a man is a different matter entirely. Gender identifying words are not interchangeable like names are, so there is a different gravity to it. 

[veritasluxmea]

Folks, I am a trans woman (a male-to-female transsexual).  I am fully transitioned, living as a woman, having obtained a legal name change and a name and gender designation change in all my documentation (birth certificate, driver's license, Social Security, U.S. passport).

I just want to remind you guys that I'm here and that I'm willing to answer respectful questions in this thread or by p.m.  I'll answer them, but I'm not interested in debating.

 

​Can I ask what religion you are? I'm curious to know if you're Catholic, how do you reconcile the Church's teachings on transexuality with your life or what do you think of those teachings in general? If you're not, well what do you think of Her position on transgenderism? Just wondering- if you'd prefer to answer by pm or not at all that's fine.  

Edited to add I'm not trying to start a debate, so maybe this would be better shared over pm. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by veritasluxmea

[Clare Brigid]

​Can I ask what religion you are? I'm curious to know if you're Catholic, how do you reconcile the Church's teachings on transexuality with your life or what do you think of those teachings in general? If you're not, well what do you think of Her position on transgenderism? Just wondering- if you'd prefer to answer by pm or not at all that's fine.  

​Thanks for this question.  I am a Catholic.  In fact, I attend the traditional Latin Mass.  These days, I most often attend an FSSP parish in North Jersey.

It surprises people to learn that the Catholic Church has no defined teaching on transsexualism.  In other words, there is no defined teaching yet on the moral permissibility of medical treatment, including hormones and surgery, for transsexuals.  Rather, there are general teachings, for example on mutilation or the the existence of only two sexes, which many bishops, priests and theologians apply to these circumstances, doing the best they can to determine the permissibility of such treatment.  However, to conclude that there is mutilation in any given case is to assume that there is no medical necessity.  But that is precisely what the Church has not pronounced on.

Similarly, a person's sex is determined by a number of factors:  the chromosomes, the sexual phenotype (how the genitals and body appear), and so on.  Scientists are coming to understand that the brain is also sexually determined in utero, and that the "sex" of the brain may not match the phenotype or chromosomes if, in the case of male to female transsexuals for instance, the androgen bath that is supposed to occur later in the pregnancy does not occur or is impeded.  In that case, the brain remains partially or completely its default sex:  female.  The brain is a critical part of the body, just like the genitals are.  No, more so.  It determines behaviors, feelings and attitudes.

The question remains open, despite what most people mistakenly believe.  In the meantime, people like me need to make decisions.  I was literally dying until I transitioned.  It was the best decision I ever made.  

Edited June 5, 2015 by Clare Brigid

[Gabriela]

I dont think it is absurd. Its your job to do what you can to teach as well as foster a comfortable environment in which the children can learn. The last thing they need is their teacher taking a political stance on a issue that is so personal to their identity. I have had teachers in the past proclaim their political or otherwise controversial views in class to the students and it is always a source for stress which is inappropriate.
I have had teachers in school who teach 1 class of 100+ students and they learn the names. They are very positive and energetic people who LOVE what they do and strive to get to know the students as best they can. We would make note cards with our names and some fun facts along with a picture so our teacher to go over them.

If you accidentally call a student by the wrong pronoun, I am sure they will correct you and that incident will likely stick in your mind and you wont forget again. I wouldnt expect them to be upset if you didnt know if the first place, but I would avoid adopting an attitude of giving up as a first resort.

​I don't work with children. I teach college students. And I see some of them only once a week. No way am I going to remember all their names in one semester.

I think part of college education is being open about one's political stances, so that students can decide whether something I teach them might be biased by my own commitments. My students all know that I'm a (faithful) Catholic and a Libertarian.

I've never had a student ask me to call him/her by a different pronoun than the one that corresponds to his/her physical sex. If one did, I'd then disclose my "political" feelings about language: You don't get to decide which pronouns refer to you. The meaning of words depends not on a single individual but on the agreement of a language-using community. We don't agree—at present—that "she" refers to males. So I'm not going with it.

Hopefully, when I finish my degree, I'll be able to teach at a Catholic institution where we will NEVER agree that "she" can refer to males. And then I can stand by the community assignment of meaning until I retire. I'm sure that won't be possible much longer at the state universities.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Gabriela

[Gabriela]

I would call the person in question by their chosen name so as not to be douchy when speaking to them, but I would avoid saying he/her, because I wouldn't want to at least seemingly support their gender identify confusion. Names are very interchangeable, and there are many names that we use now for women that used to be for men, and vice-versa. However, calling a man a woman and a woman a man is a different matter entirely. Gender identifying words are not interchangeable like names are, so there is a different gravity to it. 

​I agree with this.

[KnightofChrist]

I would call the person in question by their chosen name so as not to be douchy when speaking to them, but I would avoid saying he/her, because I wouldn't want to at least seemingly support their gender identify confusion. Names are very interchangeable, and there are many names that we use now for women that used to be for men, and vice-versa. However, calling a man a woman and a woman a man is a different matter entirely. Gender identifying words are not interchangeable like names are, so there is a different gravity to it. 

But him is a name for referring to man and her is a name for referring woman. Why not refer to a man as her if he wants you to refer to him by a woman's name? Your position is a contradiction. Calling a man by a woman's is really no different that referring to him as her.  It is God who makes a man a man and a woman a woman. I would rather be thought the biggest d-bag in the world than to play a part in 'denying what Maker Himself has ordained and strip man of his dignity as God created him.' We should respect God more than man. Respect of God and how He intended His creation is of far more importance than being thought of by the world as d-y. It would be better to refer to the person by their last name if their actual name is unknown. This avoids any cooperation in 'destroying the very essence of the human creature created by God'.

[KnightofChrist]

The Church does not support changing ones sex, the Church is against this.

"The Chief Rabbi of France, Gilles Bernheim, has shown in a very detailed and profoundly moving study that the attack we are currently experiencing on the true structure of the family, made up of father, mother, and child, goes much deeper. While up to now we regarded a false understanding of the nature of human freedom as one cause of the crisis of the family, it is now becoming clear that the very notion of being – of what being human really means – is being called into question. He quotes the famous saying of Simone de Beauvoir: “one is not born a woman, one becomes so” (on ne naît pas femme, on le devient). These words lay the foundation for what is put forward today under the term “gender” as a new philosophy of sexuality. According to this philosophy, sex is no longer a given element of nature, that man has to accept and personally make sense of: it is a social role that we choose for ourselves, while in the past it was chosen for us by society. The profound falsehood of this theory and of the anthropological revolution contained within it is obvious. People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being. They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves. According to the biblical creation account, being created by God as male and female pertains to the essence of the human creature. This duality is an essential aspect of what being human is all about, as ordained by God. This very duality as something previously given is what is now disputed. The words of the creation account: “male and female he created them” (Gen 1:27) no longer apply. No, what applies now is this: it was not God who created them male and female – hitherto society did this, now we decide for ourselves. Man and woman as created realities, as the nature of the human being, no longer exist. Man calls his nature into question. From now on he is merely spirit and will. The manipulation of nature, which we deplore today where our environment is concerned, now becomes man’s fundamental choice where he himself is concerned. From now on there is only the abstract human being, who chooses for himself what his nature is to be. Man and woman in their created state as complementary versions of what it means to be human are disputed. But if there is no pre-ordained duality of man and woman in creation, then neither is the family any longer a reality established by creation. Likewise, the child has lost the place he had occupied hitherto and the dignity pertaining to him. Bernheim shows that now, perforce, from being a subject of rights, the child has become an object to which people have a right and which they have a right to obtain. When the freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God, as the image of God at the core of his being. The defence of the family is about man himself. And it becomes clear that when God is denied, human dignity also disappears. Whoever defends God is defending man." - Pope Benedict XVI, Friday, 21 December 2012

Edited June 5, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Clare Brigid]

Knight of Christ, Pope Benedict's comments refer to those who believe that one's gender is malleable and a matter of choice.  This is why the umbrella term, "transgenderism," is not always helpful.  It includes those who do in fact engage in cross-gender behaviors for reasons of ideology, preference or fetish.

Transsexualism is something distinct.  A transsexual is a transsexual precisely because the person believes that gender is indelible.  The question in such a case is what the best match for the person is, giving due attention to the brain sex as well as other factors.

The Catholic Church has not yet provided definitive guidance on the medical necessity of treatment in such cases.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Clare Brigid

[KnightofChrist]

Knight of Christ, Pope Benedict's comments refer to those who believe that one's gender is malleable and a matter of choice.  This is why the umbrella term, "transgenderism," is not always helpful.  It includes those who do in fact engage in cross-gender behaviors for reasons of ideology, preference or fetish.

Transsexualism is something distinct.  A transsexual is a transsexual precisely because the person believes that gender is indelible.  The question in such a case is what the best match for the person is, giving due attention to the brain sex as well as other factors.

​I'm sorry but they also refer to those persons such as yourself as well. You've have cast away what God ordained.

[PhuturePriest]

But him is a name for referring to man and her is a name for referring woman. Why not refer to a man as her if he wants you to refer to him by a woman's name? Your position is a contradiction. Calling a man by a woman's is really no different that referring to him as her.  It is God who makes a man a man and a woman a woman. I would rather be thought the biggest d-bag in the world than to play a part in 'denying what Maker Himself has ordained and strip man of his dignity as God created him.' We should respect God more than man. Respect of God and how He intended His creation is of far more importance than being thought of by the world as d-y. It would be better to refer to the person by their last name if their actual name is unknown. This avoids any cooperation in 'destroying the very essence of the human creature created by God'.

​As I said, man and woman are distinct words that are not interchangeable. A person can say 2+2=5 all they want, but it doesn't. However, names really are interchangeable. For instance, the names Meredith, Jocelyn, Vivan, and Shannon, all used to be almost exclusively used for men. However, today, those are all considered girl names and if you named a man that he would be bullied into suicide at school.

[NadaTeTurbe]

Knight of Christ, Pope Benedict's comments refer to those who believe that one's gender is malleable and a matter of choice.  This is why the umbrella term, "transgenderism," is not always helpful.  It includes those who do in fact engage in cross-gender behaviors for reasons of ideology, preference or fetish.

Transsexualism is something distinct.  A transsexual is a transsexual precisely because the person believes that gender is indelible.  The question in such a case is what the best match for the person is, giving due attention to the brain sex as well as other factors.

The Catholic Church has not yet provided definitive guidance on the medical necessity of treatment in such cases.

​If I understand you well, Transexual have body dysphoria, and transgender have not ? 

Thank you for answering our questions. It's courageous. Did you speak about your transition with priest, sisters, religious, etc... ? (you are free to answer here or by p.m :)) 

[CrossCuT]

​If I understand you well, Transexual have body dysphoria, and transgender have not ? 

Thank you for answering our questions. It's courageous. Did you speak about your transition with priest, sisters, religious, etc... ? (you are free to answer here or by p.m :)) 

​I tried sending CB a pm but it wouldnt let me. Dunno why

 

Edited June 5, 2015 by CrossCuT