Do we really care about Hell?

[Credo in Deum]

Ah, so defending the existence of Hell is a white male issue. Very strange, as from all the Christians I know the ones who talk most about demons and Hell are African women. 

It's that darn white privilege again.

[Dr_Asik]

You seem pretty dead set on this thesis, but so far you are not giving us anything in the way of evidence.

I gave some examples above. This is only based on my experience of course.

Another example would be the low emphasis on evangelization in the Catholic Church.

[Nihil Obstat]

I gave some examples above. This is only based on my experience of course.

Another example would be the low emphasis on evangelization in the Catholic Church.

Meh. You gave some extremely broad, extremely general impressions that you have about people who believe or do not believe in hell. I would hesitate even to call them anecdotes, and we all know how worthless anecdotes can be in the first place.

[Ice_nine]

yeah this is silly to talk about it as a race thing. Most people, I think, on this website are white (and you can't really know that for sure) but since most English speaking Catholics are White (right?) I guess it's not a huge leap to make that assumption. And men talk about hell more because idk it's befitting of the stereotype that men are stronger and want to demonstrate that they can "handle the truth."

 

[Dr_Asik]

Meh. You gave some extremely broad, extremely general impressions that you have about people who believe or do not believe in hell. I would hesitate even to call them anecdotes, and we all know how worthless anecdotes can be in the first place.

That I've never heard a sermon on Hell is not an impression but a fact, and in mainstream Catholic circles that is something many people could relate to. I give this example because it's one many practicing Catholics could give. 

Someone suggested I should attend more traditional, Latin Masses, which only proves my point, given that these are very rare.

That the Church has a low focus on evangelization is enough of a problem for "New Evangelization" to have been a buzzword for several years now.

Perhaps where you live, most people believe in Hell, and are genuinely worried and do all they can, as their top priority in life, to help save their loved ones and neighbors, given that this surpasses any worldy issue. Can you honestly say that?

[Nihil Obstat]

I can certainly say that about my parish community. 

[Era Might]

What I find interesting is who posts about hell on the Phatmass Forum.  Overwhelmingly , it's the men--or boys.  And I suppose that it's mainly white men.

There are a few women, like me, who post about hell, but not many, and we don't seem to bring it up as a topic.  Also, there has been recently, on Phatmass, a good deal of discussion about how many people are going to hell, sometimes using rather gloating descriptions.  Boy, a lot of people are going, but not me!!  So you have white men posting about hell, some in a gloating fashion.  Why is this? 

I think that most Christians don't believe in hell.  I suspect that most people don't.  I also suspect that many otherwise believing Catholics, including many priests and religious, if it comes down to it, don't either.  Hindus and Buddhists don't. Jews don't, not even for Adoph Hitler.  I think that there was a contest, during WWII, about what was the most appropriate punishment for Hitler.  The winner went to someone who suggested that he be forced to live with his mother-in-law. 

I think that there is a wide streak of resentment, envy, unresolved anger, and desire for revenge among people who bring up hell.  They like to write about it, defend it, and think, "Boy, some time, some day, they'll get theirs!!"

Women don't need hell to get their revenge...that's what slanderous gossip and sleeping with other women's husbands is for.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Era Might

[Socrates]

If this parent believes his child could at any time die and go to hell, shouldn't preventing this be much higher in his priorities? Isn't Hell much worse than failing at school or taking drugs or whatever could happen to you in this life?

Similarly, if Christians think baptism is necessary for salvation, and that outside of salvation our default destination is Hell, shouldn't they be much more concerned about getting people baptised? Isn't this way more important than schools, hospitals, etc.?

Yes to all the above.  That is actually the teaching of the Church.

[Socrates]

Several things.  Most people, Christians or otherwise don't believe in Hell.  Christians, believing in hell or not, tend to baptize their children shortly after birth.

It is my understanding that the Catholic Church exempts from hell  those outside its compass like hundreds of millions of Hindus, Buddhists and Shintoists, plus the Jews.  People who honestly don't believe in Christianity are not rejecting hell, and other doctrines,  they just don't believe in them.  Being unbaptised used to send you to limbo; I don't know what the current belief is on that.  To qualify for hell you have to commit a mortal sin, something serious, against church law, to which you assent.  Rejecting a belief because you honestly don't believe in it is not a mortal sin.

As Christians, what "most people" believe shouldn't matter at all.  All that matters is what Jesus Christ teaches about Hell, and He very plainly and clearly taught that it exists, and that we should avoid it.  So does His Church, which clearly teaches that only the grace of Christ can save any of us.

Judging by your profile, I'm presuming you're neither Catholic nor Christian, but this is a Catholic message board (in case you haven't noticed.) 

[Socrates]

What I find interesting is who posts about hell on the Phatmass Forum.  Overwhelmingly , it's the men--or boys.  And I suppose that it's mainly white men.

There are a few women, like me, who post about hell, but not many, and we don't seem to bring it up as a topic.  Also, there has been recently, on Phatmass, a good deal of discussion about how many people are going to hell, sometimes using rather gloating descriptions.  Boy, a lot of people are going, but not me!!  So you have white men posting about hell, some in a gloating fashion.  Why is this? 

I think that most Christians don't believe in hell.  I suspect that most people don't.  I also suspect that many otherwise believing Catholics, including many priests and religious, if it comes down to it, don't either.  Hindus and Buddhists don't. Jews don't, not even for Adoph Hitler.  I think that there was a contest, during WWII, about what was the most appropriate punishment for Hitler.  The winner went to someone who suggested that he be forced to live with his mother-in-law. 

I think that there is a wide streak of resentment, envy, unresolved anger, and desire for revenge among people who bring up hell.  They like to write about it, defend it, and think, "Boy, some time, some day, they'll get theirs!!"

Those gosh darned White Males!  (Yep, let's go by the liberal playbook, and make everything about race and gender.)

A certain Middle Eastern Jewish Man (who is also God) did happen to preach quite a bit on hell, and how to avoid it.

But I'm sure He lacks sufficient pc cred to be taken seriously.  I'm sure whatever  transgendered African-American/Alaskan Native Buddhists believe on the issue according to the latest Gallup poll is much more relevant.

And besides, the Guy clearly had anger issues (need we even mention the whole Temple court incident?).

[truthfinder]

I haven't seen any women posting here (apologies if I'm mistaken), so I'll chime in.  I certainly believe in Hell, and I like to think that my belief in it is not motivated by desires of revenge.   It is also not my base motivation to not sin, but it does provide a great reflection for me to examine my life and discern where I am failing, not only in the "big" sins, but those which are perhaps just as insidious - gossip, sloth, pride, etc. And for me, who can rationalize just about any sin away, it provides an absolute to say, 'yes, I have sinned greatly, and if I were to be judge before God right now, I would go to Hell because I have offended Him greatly.'

I don't know why you see women less vocal in their beliefs about Hell - I think it's also a topic that's pretty easy to fall into both heresy and quasi-superstition (there is definitely Tradition/tradition, but there is a significant amount of pious thought over the two millennia, probably about the same with what we can expect in Heaven). 

[Dr_Asik]

I can certainly say that about my parish community. 

Well, that certainly is impressive. Do you think this is representative of Catholics though? I get the feeling you must be part of a quite traditional and atypical parish. 

After all, it was Benedict XVI who said: 

"Hell really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much anymore."  http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/03/28/pope-hell-is-real-place-where-sinners-burn-in-everlasting-fire.html

And a study by the Pew Forum in 2008 reveals that only 60% of Catholics even admits that Hell exists: http://www.pewforum.org/2008/06/01/u-s-religious-landscape-survey-religious-beliefs-and-practices/ 

Lastly it is widely recognized that Church teaching has shifted away from damnation since the last Council: http://www.uscatholic.org/church/2011/09/has-hell-frozen-over

[Nihil Obstat]

Well, that certainly is impressive. Do you think this is representative of Catholics though? I get the feeling you must be part of a quite traditional and atypical parish. 

After all, it was Benedict XVI who said: 

"Hell really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much anymore."  http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/03/28/pope-hell-is-real-place-where-sinners-burn-in-everlasting-fire.html

And a study by the Pew Forum in 2008 reveals that only 60% of Catholics even admits that Hell exists: http://www.pewforum.org/2008/06/01/u-s-religious-landscape-survey-religious-beliefs-and-practices/ 

Lastly it is widely recognized that Church teaching has shifted away from damnation since the last Council: http://www.uscatholic.org/church/2011/09/has-hell-frozen-over

Well the thing is, I am not really sure what you are trying to say in this thread. Because when you say "look, no Catholics really believe in hell", the subtext sure sounds like "lel, look at these superstitious rubes who still believe in hell. Talk about behind the times." 

I certainly believe that the Church is suffering a major crisis of faith and that most Catholics at this moment are material heretics if not outright apostates. But then the flip side of that is that I frankly do not care what those people believe, because neither does it represent what the Church believes nor does it have any bearing on the truth of the Church's teaching. What the heretics believe does not matter except inasmuch as we can convince them to abandon their heresies. Beyond that, totally irrelevant, because much like a city's sewage pipes coming from many sources to one central facility, it all ends up in the same place.

I care what faithful Catholics and holy priests and bishops believe.

[Dr_Asik]

Well the thing is, I am not really sure what you are trying to say in this thread. Because when you say "look, no Catholics really believe in hell", the subtext sure sounds like "lel, look at these superstitious rubes who still believe in hell. Talk about behind the times." 

 I'm not really talking about the truth of the doctrine, but its apparent unintelligibility, unacceptability or ineffectiveness. Hell is an extraordinarily terrifying concept, yet precious few seem particularly terrified, neither for themselves or others. The causes could be multiple and I think it's an interesting question. Here are some ideas:
 - With recent theological developments, for instance Benedict XVI emphasizing that limbo was just theological speculation, or John Paul II's description of going to Hell as a personal choice, Catholics tend to have an optimistic outlook on the afterlife. Hell may exist, but it's only for those very explicitly refusing God, and it only consists in God's absence, not fire and brimstone.
 - As the theory of evolution becomes cultural baggage, the original sin theory becomes a more abstract concept (I.e. not an actual event in the history of mankind). Thus it becomes harder to understand why for example people outside the Church should be dammed. Vatican II also emphasized the universality of salvation (Gaudium et Spes).

 

[truthfinder]

Hell may exist, but it's only for those very explicitly refusing God, and it only consists in God's absence, not fire and brimstone.
 -

 

For those who believe in God, the absence of God is far more terrifying than fire and brimstone.  

It's much like the saying: 'for those who believe, no miracle is needed; for those who don't, no miracle will suffice" - Hell is much the same.

[Yaatee]

How nice of you to examine their consciences for them.

I don't have to examine their consciences; they have published them for all to see.

[KnightofChrist]

Apparently it's just fine to be judgmental and sexist if one is a little old white lady.

[Yaatee]

Well the thing is, I am not really sure what you are trying to say in this thread. Because when you say "look, no Catholics really believe in hell", the subtext sure sounds like "lel, look at these superstitious rubes who still believe in hell. Talk about behind the times." 

I certainly believe that the Church is suffering a major crisis of faith and that most Catholics at this moment are material heretics if not outright apostates. But then the flip side of that is that I frankly do not care what those people believe, because neither does it represent what the Church believes nor does it have any bearing on the truth of the Church's teaching. What the heretics believe does not matter except inasmuch as we can convince them to abandon their heresies. Beyond that, totally irrelevant, because much like a city's sewage pipes coming from many sources to one central facility, it all ends up in the same place.

I care what faithful Catholics and holy priests and bishops believe.

Logically true, Nihil.  However, the beliefs of US Catholics has a great deal to do with the finances of the church.  American Catholics are by far the richest in the world and they give the most to their churches, the Vatican and charities worldwide.   Scandal and a breaking of faith patterns can produce much less giving. Consider what happened to giving in the Boston archdiocese, one of the largest in the world, after the scandal involving Cardinal Law.  Giving plummeted, which affected all of the charities and churches in the archdiocese.   Catholic doctrine is somewhat monolithic (and to some extent, so is Christian doctrine) and once there is a crack in either doctrine or observance or its effect on observance, support and church attendance drops.  This is what happened after Humanae Vitae, and after the pedophile priest crisis.

You may argue for an intact, integral pre-Vat II Catholic world, but it's gone, and the church must take the consequences.

[Yaatee]

Ah, so defending the existence of Hell is a white male issue. Very strange, as from all the Christians I know the ones who talk most about demons and Hell are African women. 

Do yo know what sort of hell they talk about? Specifics?

[Catlick]

John Paul II's description of going to Hell as a personal choice, Catholics tend to have an optimistic outlook on the afterlife. Hell may exist, but it's only for those very explicitly refusing God, and it only consists in God's absence, not fire and brimstone.

Here's a good example of John Paul II preaching near-heresy, as he also did on matters of sexuality and 'interreligion'. 

When it comes to Hell, we should be very sceptical of what modern theologians and clergymen say. Nowhere is there a greater temptation to substitute the Word of God for the idol of equality ('all are saved').