A sad end to a great community...

[MarysLittleFlower]

@Sister Marie and @MarysLittleFlower: I think y'all are talking past each other, and don't actually disagree. Sister Marie, you're making more sophisticated distinctions than MLF's language does, but I think she's referring not to communities involved in social justice work or out of habit in general, but to the communities of women we so often hear about in the media that support artificial contraception and "women's rights" like abortion. She's talking about the lunatic fringe of women's "religious life", the kind that isn't even properly Catholic anymore, the kind with feminist mission statements and Georgia O'Keefe-style artwork on their homepages. Obviously you're talking about women who are still faithful to the Church—which is a different group of women altogether!

yes I meant either fictional theoretical communities and those fringe ones I'm sure Sr Marie would not feel comfortable with too. I mean something like... Really really liberal... Like if asked what their purpose is they'd talk about everything except Jesus. Then after I remembered its easy for any of us including me to forget an interior life - its a constant danger just like pride! But I didn't mean more contemporary communities... But I was imagining something not centred on Christ. I haven't met such a community though and I don't know any of their names. It was an image in my mind

[Maggyie]

To be honest I do not think the effectiveness of ministry can  be measured in gala balls and golf tournaments. The Legion of Christ has plenty of success with such well heeled fundraising. 

The experience of Catholics with these particular religious is extremely mixed, which you would know if you talked for instance with a wide number of their former students. Towards the end this was a very unhealthy congregation and they damaged people. 

[Maggyie]

And my intention is not to be negative or run them down, I am sure they did many good works, and it's sad when a religious order ends, to be sure.

But at the same time something we Catholics struggle with is honesty about our leaders and institutions. The other orders in street clothes, and many in habits, that you mention will for the most part eventually suffer the same fate as the IHMs (annihilation). The Baby Boom generation was the last to be widely educated by the sisters and brothers at a time when parochial school was considered a duty for Catholic parents. I suspect it is these nostalgic, late middle-aged adults who are attending the golf tournaments. Today the vast majority of babies being baptized will never be impacted by religious. To be honest I am 30 years old and most of my Catholic peers are not even aware these women still exist. 

I remember telling one friend in college I was discerning and she assumed that I was going to have "to move to Europe" to do it!

There are lots of excuses from leaders and religious themselves as to why this is the case. What we know for sure is that a single Cardinal in California did not cause religious life in the United States to rot out from the core. What killed off the LA IHMs is what is killing off most orders. Their community was spectacularly unhealthy to begin with and so it killed them faster. 

A true reform and Renaissance in religious life is in the offing but honesty about the failures and problems is key. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

I think that the strength of new communities is their communication. They are on the internet, they speak a lot, they are visible, and they post pictures of their members even if they are just postulant ! So, you have the impression that they have more members than other. 
For exemple, in France, if you ask a random catholic who have the most vocation, Jesuits or Brother of Saint John ? They will say "Brother of Saint JOhn ! New order ! Habit !". Well, this year, they have had the same number of ordination. Also, in this community, a lot of people leave; The next door community, in my city, a new, habited, charismatic, community, have a lot of vocation, but nearly hald of their brothers and sisters have left.  I knew of an non habited order who have one or two new vocation every year. They are growing, but because they are not super into internet, you will never heard of them. I confess that I prefer orders that don't advertise themselves and their members in the internet. 

[beatitude]

Well, what is a fact is that once the IHM's in CA were thriving and now they are gone.  Without the Cardinal, they might not have been gone.  The Benedictines, Dominicans and Franciscans, many in street clothes and doing many good works, are still very much with us.  One thing happened after the papal commission was announced.  The laity rose up in arms to defend their beloved sisters, the ones that, in many cases, had saved them from drugs and jail.  The other is something that I noticed in reviewing their websites, newsletters, annual reports, etc.  That the acknowledgements for donations went on for pages and pages.  The numerous galas, golf tournaments, balls, etc. all raised huge amounts of money for the sisters' aging building maintenance and building of new apartments for the aged, and construction of their own facilities for their aged.  Time and time again multimillion dollar goals were met for these ambitious projects. There is a tremendous amount of support out there for these communities.  I think that this support, plus the change in pontificate, had a great deal with the new detente between these communities (LCWR, for the most part) and the Vatican.  It was striking that Pope Francis himself met with these nuns.

Without the cardinal, they might not have been gone. They might also have set up a farm to breed pink unicorns. What's the use of speculating? We can't know what would have happened. We only know what did, and as Maggie has pointed out, these sisters had all sorts of internal problems (including sexual abuse) that could have contributed to their ending.

Communities have come and gone throughout the Church's history. This is not necessarily a terrible thing. Sometimes trees die and new trees grow. Comparing the IHMs with the Franciscans, Benedictines, and Dominicans doesn't make any sense either, as the IHMs were a single community while these other three are orders - and within each of these orders there are communities that have lasted hundreds of years and others that came to an end. It seems as though you want to take the most sensationalist interpretation possible from this story.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm not talking about this order or any particular order but about in general orders dying out. Ive been reading the book Soul of the ApostolateApostolate with the Legion of Mary that I'm part of. And I highly highly recommend it to all especially if you have any apostolate. There's an example there of successful apostolate's and religion teachers.

They did not focus on programs etc but simply on much prayer and holiness. They succeeded much more than others. St John Vianney did not help convert hundreds of thousands of people through any way except prayer sacrifice and charity. I don't believe these are old ways but eternal ways. They allow God to work instead of mostly human action.

There is an example there of two Sisters who taught religion. One was so enthusiastic and the kids loved her. Then the priest suggested another and was told - what do you mean, she is our best one? Thisother teacher maybe had less natural talent but a powerful interior life. The kids were less excited in her lessons (the other had all sorts of games etc) but there was more fruit if I remember.

Our Lord told some mystics what He expects from His chosen souls. . love, reparation, sacrifice, never refusing Him anything, His Will above theirs... And He loves obedience. I'm confident that any order focusing on this, no matter how active or contemplative, will not only grow but will show incredible fruit in the work. Because Jesus wants to act in our actions... He doesn't just want human acts.

There is only one way to get to this. I'm not saying this as a criticism to anyone here. I'm sure there are people with a much stronger interior life than me here especially religious. I'm not even a religious. I guess I have no authority to talk about this at all. But I wanted to share what this priest wrote and what Our Lord told souls because if He said this it must be important.

Also lay people can learn from this how to make their apostolate effecive. Personally it has changed how i aoproach work etc. I believe the only thing to seek is union with God and all else will come. its not wrong to plan events etc. But so often they are done with much effort and little fruit. Is the end result conversion and sanctification of souls? Or was it just a nice event?

For example im a teacher and im sure i can teach the children better after mental prayer and Adoration than just as i am ...but if i were to become a saint, then i'd make the most difference in their lives. I still need good lesson plans but even the best plans would not affect someone as God working through a soul who has given herself to Him, unreservedly. this person may only need very simple plans anyway. Thats all i wanted to say here... This is my last post in this thread though. God bless  

[Nunsuch]

Gabriela, I put a link to the Johnson book in my first reference to it, which is toward the end of page one of this thread. It is published by Oxford University Press,and is a very important recent book.  I heard two of the authors discuss this research recently at the "Nun in the World" conference in London this past May, celebrating the 50th anniversary of Vatican II. That is where I gave a paper on what happened to lay sisters....

I'd love to know what you think after you have read it. It's really essential to anyone interested in vocations from a scholarly perspective. But it's definitely accessible to general readers, too.

[He is Risen!]

There is a wonderful community of IHMs in Wichita, I discerned with them a million years ago.  I heard (maybe not remembering correctly) that they split from the California IHMs around the time of Vatican II. http://sistersihmofwichita.org/

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

There is a wonderful community of IHMs in Wichita, I discerned with them a million years ago.  I heard (maybe not remembering correctly) that they split from the California IHMs around the time of Vatican II. http://sistersihmofwichita.org/

 

Looks like a nice order  

[Yaatee]

Gabriela, I put a link to the Johnson book in my first reference to it, which is toward the end of page one of this thread. It is published by Oxford University Press,and is a very important recent book.  I heard two of the authors discuss this research recently at the "Nun in the World" conference in London this past May, celebrating the 50th anniversary of Vatican II. That is where I gave a paper on what happened to lay sisters....

I'd love to know what you think after you have read it. It's really essential to anyone interested in vocations from a scholarly perspective. But it's definitely accessible to general readers, too.

The reality is a lot more complicated than "the mean old Cardinal surpressing the nice nuns." This community wound up with a lot of problems, not least of which was sex abuse. These women were not angels.

Probably the stress of the time revealed the problems rather than caused them. Nevertheless the point is, when a very large community utterly implodes like this it's mostly down to self destruction. An outside force, even a prince of the church, simply doesn't have that much power. 

He did in this case.  Maybe now, not so much. They were pontifical, and they could have gotten the Vatican involved. In retrospect, I am sorry that they didn't.

[Maggyie]

 

He did in this case.  Maybe now, not so much. They were pontifical, and they could have gotten the Vatican involved. In retrospect, I am sorry that they didn't.

do you really think that? Or is it more likely the community had already been hollowed out spiritually and functionally in times past? So that all the cardinal had to do was breathe on the tottering edifice for it collapse?

"Getting the Vatican involved" would not have saved this order, just like it won't save the other US religious orders that are in the process of winding down (and that's most of them). In fact the recent attempt to get the Vatican involved in U.S. religious life was a massive waste of time, as you pointed out. After a great deal of film flam, the sisters couldn't bring themselves to acknowledge that the current situation is an unsustainable crisis, and the Vatican gave up. 

(Understandable because they are almost all elderly women now. How to gently get an intransigent senior citizen to reflect on what should be changed about the lifestyle they've had for the last 50 years? if anyone figures this out let me know so I can  finally help my parents! The joints are not the only thing that becomes inflexible!)

So we are back to pretending everything is going fine in spite of all the evidence, which is a great Catholic tradition. And in the years to come we will have many, many articles like this one "the sad end to a great order." However most orders won't have the convenient scapegoat/hobgoblin of Cardinal Whatshisname. The spinners will have to come up with a different narrative to explain the institutional collapse. 

[Yaatee]

Those data are refuted by the Johnson, et al., study. I think the factor may be the way that "traditional" is being defined (and I do not mean Traditionalist, nor do Johnson, et al.).  

Gabriella, have you read the Johnson, et al., book? If so, I would be interested to know what you think of it.

Nunsuch, thank you so much for the reminder. I knew that Mary Gautier of Emanuel College was working on a big book, but didn't know it had come out--and with Pat Wittberg and Mary Johnson, the brightest around, it should be a great source and a great read.

I have ordered it.

I am reviewing websites of non-cloistered communities to see which consistently have the most final professions.  What I find is that there are a few, very few that consistently have more than one or two final professions per your.  Notably, the well-advertised Nashville Dominicans and DMME's, both featured strongly in the national media, with their Hollywood-perfect habits and the popular apostolate of teaching, are traditionally  have the largest groups in formation.  The Servidoras (Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matara), founded in Argentina, the Sisters of St. Francis of the Martyr St. George (the Alton Franciscans), and the Srs of St Francis of Perpetual Adoration Mishawaka, IN are consistently at the top.  There are a number of others which have a trickle, not certain if it's enough to maintain growth or not.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Yaatee
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[veritasluxmea]

Notably, the well-advertised Nashville Dominicans and DMME's, both featured strongly in the national media, with their Hollywood-perfect habits and the popular apostolate of teaching, are traditionally  have the largest groups in formation.  

Wow, that's a little passive-aggressive. If you're serious, you have a pretty twisted view of religious life and discernment with those orders. Or maybe I'm just reading your tone wrong. 

Maybe... The Holy Spirit is simply inspiring vocations to orders whose charism is needed for this particular time? I think there have been some beautiful responses here, particularly Beatitude's, which should be seriously considered before forming a viewpoint on the end of this order. 

I like how the sex abuse issue is kind of ignored here. That is a serious, serious problem and if it's not addressed immediately I wouldn't be surprised if it rotted a community to its core. I have zero tolerance for that sort of thing. smh. 

[Yaatee]

do you really think that? Or is it more likely the community had already been hollowed out spiritually and functionally in times past? So that all the cardinal had to do was breathe on the tottering edifice for it collapse?

"Getting the Vatican involved" would not have saved this order, just like it won't save the other US religious orders that are in the process of winding down (and that's most of them). In fact the recent attempt to get the Vatican involved in U.S. religious life was a massive waste of time, as you pointed out. After a great deal of film flam, the sisters couldn't bring themselves to acknowledge that the current situation is an unsustainable crisis, and the Vatican gave up. 

(Understandable because they are almost all elderly women now. How to gently get an intransigent senior citizen to reflect on what should be changed about the lifestyle they've had for the last 50 years? if anyone figures this out let me know so I can  finally help my parents! The joints are not the only thing that becomes inflexible!)

So we are back to pretending everything is going fine in spite of all the evidence, which is a great Catholic tradition. And in the years to come we will have many, many articles like this one "the sad end to a great order." However most orders won't have the convenient scapegoat/hobgoblin of Cardinal Whatshisname. The spinners will have to come up with a different narrative to explain the institutional collapse. 

Wow!  What a cynic you are!  Well, first of all, the IHM's  were a very vital young order full of bright young talented people.  They were awakened by Vat II and wanted to breathe new life into their old European (Spanish!) order, and beautiful, but high maintenance and undoubtedly very uncomfortable habit.  (The Spanish always have the most gorgeous habits, French the next,all v difficult and time-consuming to maintain. I saw a fluting iron at one of their convents!)  I don't know exactly why the remnant that stayed behind--which is the one that's dying--didn't continue as a traditional community, and attract its own entrants, but apparently it didn't.  I don't want to insult the remnant, but I suspect that the best ones left, which was usually the case.  I don't think that the IHMs were "hollowed out" at all, at least but before Cardinal McIntyre forced it.  You should read the story. It's unique. No other prelate did this. 

The renewed orders aren't "winding down" at all, either.  Their too large, impossible to maintain, obsolete gigantic Victorian piles have either been sold, destroyed (asbestos), or converted to other purposes compatible with their charisms  (such as housing for the elderly).  The orders were too large, they were at their peak. How do you maintain receiving 40 postulants? (Yes!)  Their charisms changed, too, in accord with their constitutions, to serve the poor. As it turns out, it's much harder to "serve the poor" that teach fifth graders. Much less appealing, too.  And you can't recruit from those you serve, either.  These old orders are merging, as they should (how many separate Dominican communities were there in Ohio?  Four?  Five?)  There is only one Nashville Dominican and they recruit from the entire English-speaking world. There are 46 separate Benedictine orders in the US with OSB after their titles.  There will be fewer motherhouses and fewer sisters i the future,  but the various major monastic and mendicant traditions will go on.

I think that the "renewed" orders were hit by the fact that the young'uns, who weren't necessarily what they were, were flocking to the Teaching Habits. The renewed orders weren't on the internet much. No newsletters.  No social media. What was a blog?  They had been busy selling off their properties and building those accessible living wings.  But their loyal lay helpers and associates brought them up to date with their websites and social media, and they started getting applicants, usually older, very well educated women, often with annulments and grandchildren. And if you attract older applicants, they themselves, unlike high schoolers, have jobs to leave (and possibly not get back), cars and houses to sell, and entire secular lives to unwind.

I think that the papal commission was investigating the non-habited sisters' (always a sign of heresy!) religious beliefs.  They gave up when they found out that they were orthodox, after all.  The commission, tired of those simple rooms and that simple food, went back to Rome.

[Yaatee]

To be honest I do not think the effectiveness of ministry can  be measured in gala balls and golf tournaments. The Legion of Christ has plenty of success with such well heeled fundraising. 

The experience of Catholics with these particular religious is extremely mixed, which you would know if you talked for instance with a wide number of their former students. Towards the end this was a very unhealthy congregation and they damaged people. 

I refer to the  galas as major fundraisers sponsored by  wealthy people and others, who support those terrible sisters who don't wear those nice habits anymore. When the papal commission began, there was gigantic opposition from the laity, who were supporting those sisters who, by and large, had taught them very well.  This was all in the wake of the Cardinal Law scandal (yes, another cardinal).  The laity were Fed Up.  So  you say, "Who cares about the laity? The Catholic Church isn't a popularity contest." The Catholic church in the United States of America supports the Catholic church in the rest of the world. And its own.  For example, in 2002, after Cardinal Law left Boston in disgrace, donations to the archdiocese' major annual appeal, The Cardinal's Appeal, were cut in half, from 17 million to 8.6 million. 

Money supports "the effects of ministry." Money raised in gala balls and golf tournaments. 

http://repository.wellesley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=thesiscollection