End Of Life Counseling

[superblue]

https://www.yahoo.com/health/medicare-to-cover-end-of-life-counseling-123578635517.html

Phrased so kindly isn't it.

 

How could it possibly be morally wrong or even sinful to have " end of life counseling ". I seriously doubt one needs counseling on how to prepare ones things before death, we have living wills, etc.....  So finding a comfortable way to die.... versus extending your life because it would be  " painful " not only to you but to your " loved ones ".

 

So out of " kindness " this is now an option.

 

So abortion is fine, and now we are finding more ways to beat around the bush of what will amount to assisted suicide.... YET  how hard did Dr. Kavorkian get hammered back in the day for doing just this ? It just wasn't " acceptable " at that point in time.   And more over we are supposed to believe by this article that this is just now common practice and that I guess the doctors simply want medicaid / care whatever.... to pay for their time in this " counseling ".

Good times people. Blame Sarah Palin for being over dramatic yet don't blame the democratic party for making this an option, but it is okay to vote democrat morally as a Catholic well because ya know, we have to get with the times. The Constitution and lets include the Church are just out dated stone age mythological things of the past.

[Ice_nine]

"I seriously doubt one needs counseling on how to prepare ones things before death,"

 

really?

sounds like someone is overreacting

[Nihil Obstat]

You do understand the concept of extraordinary means which can morally be rejected, right? And that this can be a confusing topic especially given the emotions associated with death and serious injury, yes?

[Yaatee]

An idea whose time has come. Along with the funding. Many patients are going to take advantage of this.

[KnightofChrist]

One only need to look at the V.A. to see how well the Federal Government takes care of the health of those in need. There will not be enough funding to treat everyone, the nation is trillions and trillions in dept, treatment will go to those who will most contribute to society after lining the pockets of politicians and bureaucrats. Government is far to corrupt and dishonest to be trusted with the healthcare of citizens. They certainly don't trust us enough to have these discussions with our doctors without their interference.

[CrossCuT]

This could also potentially save lives. If someone has it in their head that they want to end their life early due to the emotion and physical duress of a terminal illness, maybe the counseling can help them get through a hard time? People might make up their mind to take their own life, but this may potentially slow the process if the counseling is a required step. IMO, it seems like a smart move either way.

If I am lucky enough to be mentally aware before my death enough to receive counseling on matters before I die, that would be really nice.

[Ice_nine]

superblue sometimes you sound like chicken little

[KnightofChrist]

All hail Caesar I guess. But politicians and bureaucrats will play a HUGE role in how our health. There are plenty of real life examples of how very terrible it is at that. But meh, it doesn't matter to most people until it effects them negatively.

But if anyone is interested CATO put out a paper on the dangers of this

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa632.pdf

Warning it's not for those who hate reading, this is a big teal deer.

[superblue]

of course people should prepare for their death, of course there are exceptions to every rule, that is not what i am getting at.  

The disgusting part is having a government funded agency come in, and paint a rosy picture to something that it is not. Why do doctors need to be paid for what this particular issue is talking about ? I seriously doubt what this is, is simply going into your doctors office, and sitting down and talking about how to prepare medically for ones death, what type of medications one can take, etc.... That is a crock because, if you do have a terminal disease, an you are going to die either way, guess what, any doctor out there is going to provide that patient with pain killers, or what ever to ease the pain, even the new medical marijuana.

So what else is there then ? If one is not terminally ill, and has a treatable disease, but is in their late 80s to mid 90s, why does that person need the government to pay a doctor to counsel them about anything ?  Guess what, doctors are already telling the elderly what they should be doing as it is, it isn't like dieing is a secret.  None of this " end of life counseling " this entire article should not even be discussed at all.  It is nothing but another pandoras box waiting to be opened.

You want " end of life counseling " ? Go talk to a psychologist, a lawyer, or here is a crazy idea, a Priest.

The democrat party is not interested in helping anyone for any good moral reason pass over to the other side in a peaceful feel good way.

Real doctors are out there to protect lives and save lives, not help end lives. 

An i know i focus too much on the Dems, but KOC nailed it,  the politicians and bureaucrats are playing too big of a role in our health.  Everyone wants a lower doctor bill, lower price to pay on meds, that is a no brainer, but they never ever focus on that. Obama care would have been terrific had obama simply just had his goons write a simple document capping the price of meds and doctor / hospital visits. 

 

Enjoy the laugh while ya can though, it may not personally affect anyone now, but if you have children, or grandchildren, those are the ones who will feel the real hope an change down the road.

[Maggyie]

I think end of life counseling is great and hopefully if the government funds it, private insurance will too. Imagine if Terri Schiavo had a chance to make explicit, in writing, that she didn't want to be starved to death. 

Now let's say she directed the opposite, that wouldn't be right, but look what happened regardless. She's dead and the government didn't need a piece of paper from her or a "death panel" to make that happen. So an end of life directive can be the only thing standing between the government and your daily nutrition. Make sure you have one. 

[homeschoolmom]

Having just sat through a meeting with my mother's doctor to go over her end-of-life wishes, I found it very helpful. Mom has dementia and did not attend the meeting. But HSDad, the doctor, NP, and I were able to discuss various options and conclude what Mom would want (based on her medical directive, my conversations with her, and our values). It's okay to allow nature to take its course when someone is at the end of life without resorting to heroic measures that are not likely to do any good. There was nothing like assisted suicide or hastening her death discussed at all. Simply a conversation about what measures should be taken in various situations. 

[KnightofChrist]

But how much do we want the government to be involved in how our doctors can advise us and do we want it to dictate when our life is near its end?

Edited July 10, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[superblue]

Having just sat through a meeting with my mother's doctor to go over her end-of-life wishes, I found it very helpful. Mom has dementia and did not attend the meeting. But HSDad, the doctor, NP, and I were able to discuss various options and conclude what Mom would want (based on her medical directive, my conversations with her, and our values). It's okay to allow nature to take its course when someone is at the end of life without resorting to heroic measures that are not likely to do any good. There was nothing like assisted suicide or hastening her death discussed at all. Simply a conversation about what measures should be taken in various situations. 

a rose by any other name is still a rose.

But how much do we want the government to be involved in how our doctors can advise us and do we want it to dictate when our life is near its end?

none

[superblue]

we have a responsibility to face our crosses head on, to not give into an easy way out provided by a party or government agency that claims to know better and only want better for us.

Our bodies are not our own, there fore we are obligated to take care of them to best of our abilities till the very end, and when it becomes difficult we become a beacon of hope to those that care for us.

sugar coat the issue all one wants, there are very few exceptions to the rules in our faith....

and no one walks in expecting to hear a doctor say well mr. smith today we are going to talk about assisted suicide and or how to hasten your loved ones death. It is always with code words, words that elude to what it really is. An just because this will eventually become the norm, an legal, won't make it right.

and by the logic of well its natural, if i were to give in to my " natural " thoughts / intuitions / desires, i would be dead and or in prison right now. An my claim of well it was just natural for me to do so, would not fly at all.

 

 

[homeschoolmom]

a rose by any other name is still a rose.

none

Believe what you want. I was there. You weren't. 

And no one walks in expecting to hear a doctor say well mr. smith today we are going to talk about assisted suicide and or how to hasten your loved ones death. It is always with code words, words that elude to what it really is. An just because this will eventually become the norm, an legal, won't make it right.

Do you even know what you are talking about?  

[Yaatee]

I think end of life counseling is great and hopefully if the government funds it, private insurance will too. Imagine if Terri Schiavo had a chance to make explicit, in writing, that she didn't want to be starved to death. 

Now let's say she directed the opposite, that wouldn't be right, but look what happened regardless. She's dead and the government didn't need a piece of paper from her or a "death panel" to make that happen. So an end of life directive can be the only thing standing between the government and your daily nutrition. Make sure you have one. 

You can opt for anything you want. If you want parenteral nutrition, all stops pulled, you can have it. Most people don't want these thing, if they are old, have chronic illnesses, and are suffering.  Ironically, people in hospice live longer with a better quality of life, once extreme interventions are abandoned.

Also ironically, Terri Schiavo had made it very clear to her friends, that if she were in the shape she ended up in, that she did not want to linger.  The girls were discussing the fate of a young woman they knew or had read about in the local newspaper.

Regarding starvation and thirst in end-stage dementia, there is no evidence that abstaining from or withdrawing nutrition either causes discomfort or hastens death. Indeed installing and maintaining feeding tubes have their own complications and sources of discomfort. Here's a position statement from the Alzheimer's Association.

http://www.alz.org/documents_custom/statements/Assisted_Oral_Tube_Feeding.pdf

Many if not most people don't "prepare for death".  They don't have health care proxies, written instructions, nor do they discuss their wishes with friends or family.  So that when the need arises, the family is unprepared for making these decisions, and the differences among family members often creates irreparable breaches.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Yaatee

[dominicansoul]

It is not a sin to allow "nature to take its course."  The Church allows a person to decide on whether or not they want "extraordinary" means to keep them alive. Thats what these "end of life" counseling sessions are all about.  

...at the same time, this can be abused by hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc.  So, I can understand the defensive attitude...  

I pray to St. Joseph for a peaceful, holy death... I'm a wuss... I'd want the good Lord to take me quick...

[beatitude]

It is not a sin to allow "nature to take its course."  The Church allows a person to decide on whether or not they want "extraordinary" means to keep them alive. Thats what these "end of life" counseling sessions are all about.  

...at the same time, this can be abused by hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc.  So, I can understand the defensive attitude...  

I pray to St. Joseph for a peaceful, holy death... I'm a wuss... I'd want the good Lord to take me quick...

Yes. When my grandmother was dying, she had a choice between a very invasive surgery that might have prolonged her life a bit but might also have finished her off, and just being made as comfortable as possible in her nursing home. She took the second choice. She'd already had a dozen surgeries, she was very ill, and she'd had enough of invasive treatment after invasive treatment. It seems that many Catholics don't realise that this is a legitimate moral choice, and that people in her position aren't obliged to take every single treatment possible.

[Nihil Obstat]

Not to mention, what constitutes ordinary means for one person could be extraordinary for another, in some circumstances.

[KnightofChrist]

Why are we debating on issues we agree on? Of course end of life counseling is morally good. Of course one can decline to take extraordinary means to save ones life and choose to die instead. But the purpose and authority of these 'panels' is far greater than just advise on end of life issues. I don't think many understand that. It will approve or disapprove treatments for all sorts of health problems. It will have authority in dictating what constitutes ordinary or extraordinary means. It will have authority in how our doctors can and cannot treat us and it will have the authority to decide when and when not someone is at the end of their life.

Edited July 10, 2015 by KnightofChrist