St Therese and roses

[Ash Wednesday]

I thought I'd mention that I'm praying the Therese novena for someone else....

 

 

but.....

 

 

 

My husband bought me roses today.

 

*thud*

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

St. Therese hates me. I've tried novenas and no roses.  I'm actually sort of serious.

Part of me believes in novenas and another part of me feels that there is something superstitious in having to say a prayer exactly nine times. 

Sorry to dash people's image of me. Just now someone changed one of my posts to say "It's just a cross to bear." That's a very Catholic phrase and I'm not Catholic, no matter what people might want to wish or imagine. 

funny that you say say a prayer and not pray to saints.  so your ok with praying to saints just not repetitively? 

[MarysLittleFlower]

You might like her sisters book My Sister St Therese - its just little stories about her I know St Therese's writing style is flowery, personally I love it but not all do. However her spirituality is very serious - more serious than it seems. She suffered the dark night of the soul with no complaint and through nothing but faith.

Edited August 7, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

funny that you say say a prayer and not pray to saints.  so your ok with praying to saints just not repetitively? 

Yup, I frequently pray for the intercession of the saints. It's not that I don't also pray directly to Jesus/God, but I really like the idea of having "friends" who will pray for me. Perhaps it's because I feel my own prayers are weak.

But, yes, it's the repetition of exactly 9 times that begins to suggest superstition, and "magical thinking" that if a person prays a certain prayer 9 times, God is more likely to grant their request, or the saint is more likely to listen, versus other types of prayer.

But, as I said earlier, I am not rejecting novenas, I'm just not sure of them. Some of the people I respect most on Phatmass believe in the power of novenas, so I'm not rejecting them AT ALL. I've said before that there are some Catholic beliefs and practices I'm not sure about, and this is one of them. However, I haven't stopped listening, and have even said novenas myself, usually because I know that it would mean a lot to the person I'm praying for that I've said a novena for them.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just in my understanding - its not that one prayer isn't good... More that a novena shows and develops perseverance in prayer... There's probably more reasons that I'm just not aware of  

[Ash Wednesday]

Part of me believes in novenas and another part of me feels that there is something superstitious in having to say a prayer exactly nine times. 

Ideally, it isn't about a regimented number, it's supposed to be a period of reflection and prayer with a particular saint, devotion, and intention. The 9 days originated in the period of prayer between Ascencion and Pentecost when the Apostles gathered with Mary and prayed before the coming of the Holy Spirit. Christians started praying 9 days to Christmas (symbolizing 9 months of Jesus being in Mary's womb). I guess the nines had it! Hope that helps.

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/what-is-significance-of-novena-why-nine.html

[Archaeology cat]

St. Therese hates me. I've tried novenas and no roses.  I'm actually sort of serious.

Part of me believes in novenas and another part of me feels that there is something superstitious in having to say a prayer exactly nine times. 

Sorry to dash people's image of me. Just now someone changed one of my posts to say "It's just a cross to bear." That's a very Catholic phrase and I'm not Catholic, no matter what people might want to wish or imagine. 

The 9 days are because of the 9 days of prayer from the Ascension to Pentecost.  

Sorry, but no. I've read a lot of Catholic books--in fact, virtually every religious book I've read in the past five years has been Catholic and I read a Catholic Bible. I know St. Therese is beloved, but I find her a bit too precious. Based on what I've heard of her writings. St. Therese had some very wise things to say, but at this point in my life, I would have a difficult time getting past her writing style, which reflects the times she lived in. Perhaps later.

I know what you mean. I was reluctant to read it or like her for the same reasons. Her diary isn't my fave book, but I did like it, surprisingly. I do personally relate more to her parents, though. 

[beatitude]

Yup, I frequently pray for the intercession of the saints. It's not that I don't also pray directly to Jesus/God, but I really like the idea of having "friends" who will pray for me. Perhaps it's because I feel my own prayers are weak.

But, yes, it's the repetition of exactly 9 times that begins to suggest superstition, and "magical thinking" that if a person prays a certain prayer 9 times, God is more likely to grant their request, or the saint is more likely to listen, versus other types of prayer.

But, as I said earlier, I am not rejecting novenas, I'm just not sure of them. Some of the people I respect most on Phatmass believe in the power of novenas, so I'm not rejecting them AT ALL. I've said before that there are some Catholic beliefs and practices I'm not sure about, and this is one of them. However, I haven't stopped listening, and have even said novenas myself, usually because I know that it would mean a lot to the person I'm praying for that I've said a novena for them.

I used to think I was no good at praying novenas, because I always forget to pray the formal prayers in the middle of them. But as others have said, it's not the number of prayers that's important, it's the symbolism - the apostles and Mary retreated to the upper room and had nine days of prayer before the Holy Spirit descended among them. They needed to pray because of all the upheaval and terror and hope and joy that had transfigured their lives during the Passion, which is why Catholics tend to make a novena when we are facing a particularly difficult or demanding time. It signifies our own desire to enter that upper room along with Mary and the apostles, to let the Holy Spirit come to us. Invoking that memory of the upper room is a form of prayer in itself. As Pentecost is regarded as the birthday of the church, that upper room gathering is the first image we have of the Church at prayer, which is why I like praying novenas in company with others - they remind me that I am "a link in a chain, a bond of connection between persons" as Cardinal Newman put it, and reinforce my sense of belonging in the Church. This is true even when I forget to pray the formal prayers associated with a novena. Often I just pray in my own words, or remember the stories and sayings of whichever saint the novena is directed to - it's not the exact words that are important, but the intention and the meaning.

Edited August 7, 2015 by beatitude
Typo

[Nunsense]

Sorry, but no. I've read a lot of Catholic books--in fact, virtually every religious book I've read in the past five years has been Catholic and I read a Catholic Bible. I know St. Therese is beloved, but I find her a bit too precious. Based on what I've heard of her writings. St. Therese had some very wise things to say, but at this point in my life, I would have a difficult time getting past her writing style, which reflects the times she lived in. Perhaps later.

You are not alone in this Iggy. I have read all of her books plus many others written about her, plus letters between her and her sisters, and I just can't get past the writing style and the whole 'Little Flower' thing. Plus, I don't agree with a lot of the things she says. But then that's just me. I have never been big on idealising the saints. I love reading some of them, especially the ones that have a style I can relate to. I adore St John of the Cross, even though some of his earlier books are hard going. I really enjoyed St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross in her book 'The Science of the Cross' about St John's writings. St Teresa of Avila is good reading but once again, there is a lot that leaves me cold.

I think God reveals Himself to each one of us in a way that works for us individually. If I can agree with anything St Therese said, it is that each one of us is a unique flower in God's garden. Or as Monty Python would say: "We are all individuals!"  [pause]  "I'm not."   

 

[beatitude]

You are not alone in this Iggy. I have read all of her books plus many others written about her, plus letters between her and her sisters, and I just can't get past the writing style and the whole 'Little Flower' thing. Plus, I don't agree with a lot of the things she says. But then that's just me. I have never been big on idealising the saints. I love reading some of them, especially the ones that have a style I can relate to. I adore St John of the Cross, even though some of his earlier books are hard going. I really enjoyed St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross in her book 'The Science of the Cross' about St John's writings. St Teresa of Avila is good reading but once again, there is a lot that leaves me cold.

I think God reveals Himself to each one of us in a way that works for us individually. If I can agree with anything St Therese said, it is that each one of us is a unique flower in God's garden. Or as Monty Python would say: "We are all individuals!"  [pause]  "I'm not."   

 

I find most of St Therese's writings far too sugary-sweet. Story of a Soul practically induced diabetes in me when I read it, it was that sickly. I realise that this was the writing style of nineteenth-century France (and that one of her blood sisters actually edited some of her work to make it even more flowery) but it's still hard to get past. So it was refreshing to discover the book St Therese: The Last Conversations. These are conversations that were jotted down by her Carmelite sisters during her final months. Although these excerpts are often fragmentary, that book came as a breath of cool fresh air to me, and it allowed me to see St Therese as she was in her own speech and daily life. There is a big difference between the spoken Therese and the written Therese, and I really love that book.

[Nunsense]

I find most of St Therese's writings far too sugary-sweet. Story of a Soul practically induced diabetes in me when I read it, it was that sickly. I realise that this was the writing style of nineteenth-century France (and that one of her blood sisters actually edited some of her work to make it even more flowery) but it's still hard to get past. So it was refreshing to discover the book St Therese: The Last Conversations. These are conversations that were jotted down by her Carmelite sisters during her final months. Although these excerpts are often fragmentary, that book came as a breath of cool fresh air to me, and it allowed me to see St Therese as she was in her own speech and daily life. There is a big difference between the spoken Therese and the written Therese, and I really love that book.

That was a good book, you are right. I don't remember which one it was that had the letters back and forth between the sisters, but I loved the bit where Therese and Celine are saying that they are going to teach Leonie how to pluck her mustache. They were going to get together (I can't remember if Leonie was visiting them or they visiting her) and do it all together for each other. Therese said something along the lines of just because they were nuns didn't mean they had to have mustaches.  This kind of blew my mind because it was just so 'human' and definitely female. Now that is a side of her that would make me like her but so many people focus on this sugary-sweet saintliness instead and that turns me off. I much prefer saints who are human - that tells me that anyone can be a saint. The ones who are portrayed as perfect beyond belief leave me cold because it just makes them inhuman and beyond the rest of us. But then we all need our heroes to be something different I suppose.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I used to think I was no good at praying novenas, because I always forget to pray the formal prayers in the middle of them. But as others have said, it's not the number of prayers that's important, it's the symbolism - the apostles and Mary retreated to the upper room and had nine days of prayer before the Holy Spirit descended among them. They needed to pray because of all the upheaval and terror and hope and joy that had transfigured their lives during the Passion, which is why Catholics tend to make a novena when we are facing a particularly difficult or demanding time. It signifies our own desire to enter that upper room along with Mary and the apostles, to let the Holy Spirit come to us. Invoking that memory of the upper room is a form of prayer in itself. As Pentecost is regarded as the birthday of the church, that upper room gathering is the first image we have of the Church at prayer, which is why I like praying novenas in company with others - they remind me that I am "a link in a chain, a bond of connection between persons" as Cardinal Newman put it, and reinforce my sense of belonging in the Church. This is true even when I forget to pray the formal prayers associated with a novena. Often I just pray in my own words, or remember the stories and sayings of whichever saint the novena is directed to - it's not the exact words that are important, but the intention and the meaning.

i like the connection to the Upper Room!

Lol I personally like her writing style though I like some other styles too her ideas though are quite serious, amidst the more flowery writing style. Also though I can relate more to the penitent Saints I enjoy reading about those who never did a mortal sin cause it helps me get my values in order. 

[Nunsense]

i like the connection to the Upper Room!

Lol I personally like her writing style though I like some other styles too her ideas though are quite serious, amidst the more flowery writing style. Also though I can relate more to the penitent Saints I enjoy reading about those who never did a mortal sin cause it helps me get my values in order. 

Isn't that funny? I prefer the saints who were human because it gives me hope that anyonecan be a saint. Those who never commit a sin or who seem 'too perfect' always give me the irrits. I love St Joseph just because he seems so human whereas the Blessed Mother was created without sin, so that's a little hard for me to relate to. I love her, don't get me wrong, but I identify with the 'real' human saints a little better. Peter and Paul squabbling gives me hope that we who argue aren't completely lost! LOL

[Nihil Obstat]

Isn't that funny? I prefer the saints who were human because it gives me hope that anyonecan be a saint. Those who never commit a sin or who seem 'too perfect' always give me the irrits. I love St Joseph just because he seems so human whereas the Blessed Mother was created without sin, so that's a little hard for me to relate to. I love her, don't get me wrong, but I identify with the 'real' human saints a little better. Peter and Paul squabbling gives me hope that we who argue aren't completely lost! LOL

St. Joseph did not sin though. He was not without original sin like Mary, but the Church's tradition has always been that he never personally committed a sin.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I guess the penitent ones give me hope and the others humble me but I have Saints who - I hope it's OK to say, but I love them as my friends and family - and they lived intense lives of holiness almost from childhood. Like St Gemma and Blessed Dina Belanger, St Therese and St Philomena. I asked St Padre Pio to be my spiritual father. But St Mary Magdalene I love as one I can relate to and want to be like. 

St. Joseph did not sin though. He was not without original sin like Mary, but the Church's tradition has always been that he never personally committed a sin.

not venial either? (But I'm not arguing at all I also love St Joseph) Just wanted to clarify!

Edited August 8, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nunsense]

St. Joseph did not sin though. He was not without original sin like Mary, but the Church's tradition has always been that he never personally committed a sin.

No, but he did question Mary's pregnancy at first and wanted to divorce her quietly. He had to be reassured by an angel that everything was ok. That's human to me. I mean, heck, I'm hardly a great sinner myself - in fact I was a perfect  student at school, never did drugs or had sex, was Mommy's little angel etc etc. And I wasn't even raised Catholic! I just liked being the 'good girl'. So I guess I haven't ever really committed a mortal sin either (I was 25 when I was baptised and even if I had been a 'bad girl', which I wasn't, all my sins would have been cleansed at that point). 

So I'm not saying that I identify with great sinners like Augustine (although I do think his story is great), but I identify with real human beings, who doubt and question and need a little help from God to trust - more so than the ones who are claimed to have never committed even the tiniest sin and who always appeared to do everything perfectly and always trusted God etc etc. Let's just say that I like my saints 'down to earth'. That's me. I know lots of people like the ideal saints so they can emulate them and that's great too. If we weren't all different, what a boring old world this might be.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

I did read something... One of the struggles of St Joseph was that he felt unworthy to be Our Lady's husband and guardian. Its not like he doubted her virtue, though he suffered due to not knowing the explanation and then feeling unworthy. Just what I remember

Edited August 8, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nihil Obstat]

No, but he did question Mary's pregnancy at first and wanted to divorce her quietly. He had to be reassured by an angel that everything was ok. That's human to me. I mean, heck, I'm hardly a great sinner myself - in fact I was a perfect  student at school, never did drugs or had sex, was Mommy's little angel etc etc. And I wasn't even raised Catholic! I just liked being the 'good girl'. So I guess I haven't ever really committed a mortal sin either (I was 25 when I was baptised and even if I had been a 'bad girl', which I wasn't, all my sins would have been cleansed at that point). 

I did read something... One of the struggles of St Joseph was that he felt unworthy to be Our Lady's husband and guardian. Its not like he doubted her virtue, though he suffered due to not knowing the explanation and then feeling unworthy. Just what I remember

Yes, MLF has it right. St. Joseph did not doubt Mary, whose holiness was clear to all, nor did he doubt God's plan.

[Nunsense]

Yes, MLF has it right. St. Joseph did not doubt Mary, whose holiness was clear to all, nor did he doubt God's plan.

I never said he doubted Mary or God's plan. I said he doubted, and he did, or he wouldn't have wanted to divorce her - that isn't a sign of trust in anyone's book. And I love that he had doubts - it is what makes him human to me.

[Nihil Obstat]

I never said he doubted Mary or God's plan. I said he doubted, and he did, or he wouldn't have wanted to divorce her - that isn't a sign of trust in anyone's book. And I love that he had doubts - it is what makes him human to me.

I have been taught that he intended to divorce her because of his unworthiness to be the foster father of Our Lord. He trusted perfectly, both in Mary and in God.