For Goodness Sake

[the lumberjack]

ok, this isn't part of the actual topic, but isn't sake a wierd word???

I mean really...read it a couple times, see if it makes sense to you...

sake.

wierd.

but anyways...



[color=blue]IS MAN INHERENTLY GOOD?[/color]



that is my question to all here...as I've seen things in very recent history that would say one thing.

but I want to get the opinion of people here.

[Winchester]

Man is of the world, and the world is fallen. Man was created good but chose sin and now has a fallen nature.

[voiciblanche]

Right. But it's also important to remember that we are not [i]evil.[/i] We can [i]do[/i] evil, wrong things, but [i]we[/i] are not evil beings.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

man is not inherently good. a lesson learned the hard way.

[the lumberjack]

Kilroy, Winchester, what do you say to voici?

are we evil?

[cmotherofpirl]

We have a tendency toward sin because of the fall of Adam.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

I didn't say we were evil, I said we are not inherently good. In our most basic state, human beings are inherently [i]neutral[/i], ie, we're out for number one. Ourselves.

We have to work to be good.


Now, I do believe that some people don't have to work as hard as others. But I for one do have to work [i]very[/i] hard.

[the lumberjack]

isn't selfishness evil?

doesn't that mean that we'll do whatever it takes to make sure that number 1 is taken care of?

didn't Christ say that "even you, being evil...."

and these were people that thought themselves to be good, upstanding, religious people...weren't they?

I'm wondering...really.

[peach_cube]

I don't know, selfishness is complicated...Out of my own selfish thoughts and drives I may actually do some good. For instance, look at turn of the century buisness tycoons, out of their selfish need to be recognized as great men they actually did some good with their philanthropy. While they were doing this for selfish reasons they were also subjecting their workers to horrible inhuman conditions, again for their own selfish reasons.

[PedroX]

Lumberjack,

Are you trying to get us to subscribe to the Calvinist doctrine of "Total Depravity"? Why on earth would we buy into something that was invented in the mid 16th century? Next you'll be asking us to become dispensationalists or members of the Weslayean holiness movement.

peace...

[MC Just]

None of us Catholics will be leaving the Fullness of Truth for a bunch of mixed and confused churches that cant even agree with each other. Keep spitting your feiry darts anti-catholics. You will not win the heart's that are so nourished by the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.. Isnt Persecution something? having 33,832 sects and denominations all telling you, your wrong.

[Apotheoun]

Everything that God has created is inherently good, because to say otherwise is to hold that God Himself created something evil, which is clearly false.

[phatcatholic]

kilroy,

i disagree w/ u when you say that we are NOT inherently good. we are in fact inherently good b/c we are all made in the image and likeness of God. sin attempts to stain the good that is in it, and it does on occasion, but it never actually expels the goodness all together.

now, the stain that sin does cause is enough to make us unpleasing to God, in spite of our inherent goodness, but we are inherently good nonetheless. as long as we are made by God (which means, as long as time exists) we will have a goodness w/in us that longs for greater things, for true happiness, for communion w/ our creator. God has placed this goodness w/in every single person--w/in every single sinner--so that he may be naturally compelled towards Him.

unfortunately, b/c of the effects of sin, this natural inclination is often inhibited, in which case we require the grace of God to replenish the goodness w/in us and set us back on the path towards him.

i believe my theology is correct here, but someone please correct me if i am wrong.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited June 16, 2004 by phatcatholic

[daugher-of-Mary]

Does any one have a Catechism quote on this topic? There are three CCC's in my house and I can't find one of them!

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='daugher-of-Mary' date='Jun 15 2004, 09:00 PM'] Does any one have a Catechism quote on this topic? There are three CCC's in my house and I can't find one of them! [/quote]
i'm on it....

expect a reply soon

[Archbishop 10-K]

Going off topic, I try not to use "for goodness' sake" since it makes no logical sense and appaears to be a measly attempt to substitute using God's holy name in vain. I have the same attitude towards "gosh" and other words like that.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jun 15 2004, 06:34 PM'] Lumberjack,

Are you trying to get us to subscribe to the Calvinist doctrine of "Total Depravity"? Why on earth would we buy into something that was invented in the mid 16th century? Next you'll be asking us to become dispensationalists or members of the Weslayean holiness movement.

peace... [/quote]
Pedro X, MCJust...

I'm not trying to get you to subscribe to anything, so there's no need for you BOTH to jump on my boys in an attempt to make me some kind of religious monster.

I'm just asking for people's opinions and possible biblical backing for whether or not man is inherently good or evil.

--------------------

and phatcatholic,

and what do you say to Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10???

and are you saying that even outside of the salvation of the Lord we are all children of God? we ARE all created by God, but are we all God's children? What about Romans 8:28-39???

just wondering, brother...God bless

[phatcatholic]

daughter,

i have attempted here to arrange, in piecemeal fashion, the articles in the Catechism which support my claim that man is inherently good. although they are not meant to proceed in this order, i think i have arranged them in a way that is fluid and makes sense. nevertheless, it would also be wise to look up each paragraph and read it within the context from which it was taken.

now, on to the Catechism....


[b]The Thesis for My Argument:[/b]

[b]1700[/b] The dignity of the human person is rooted in his creation in the image and likeness of God [i](article 1)[/i]; it is fulfilled in his vocation to divine beatitude [i](article 2)[/i]. It is essential to a human being freely to direct himself to this fulfillment [i](article 3)[/i]. By his deliberate actions [i](article 4)[/i], the human person does, or does not, conform to the good promised by God and attested by moral conscience [i](article 5)[/i]. Human beings make their own contribution to their interior growth; they make their whole sentient and spiritual lives into means of this growth [i](article 6)[/i]. With the help of grace they grow in virtue [i](article 7)[/i], avoid sin, and if they sin they entrust themselves as did the prodigal son1 to the mercy of our Father in heaven [i](article 8)[/i]. In this way they attain to the perfection of charity.

[b]Supporting Arguments:[/b]

[b]27[/b] The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:[list]
[*][b]The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God.[/b] This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1
[/list][b]30[/b] "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, "an upright heart", as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.[list]
[*]You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. [b]And man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud.[/b] Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.6
[/list][b]369 [/b]Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. [b]"Being man" or "being woman" is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity "in the image of God".[/b] In their "being-man" and "being-woman", they reflect the Creator's wisdom and goodness.

[b]1702[/b] The divine image is present in every man. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the unity of the divine persons among themselves (cf. chapter two).

[b]704[/b] "God fashioned man with his own hands [that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit] and impressed his own form on the flesh he had fashioned, in such a way that even what was visible might bear the divine form."65

[b]374 [/b]The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

[b]1934[/b] Created in the image of the one God and equally endowed with rational souls, all men have the same nature and the same origin. Redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ, all are called to participate in the same divine beatitude: all therefore enjoy an equal dignity.

[b]1704[/b] The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good."7

[b]2467[/b] Man tends by nature toward the truth. He is obliged to honor and bear witness to it: "It is in accordance with their dignity that all men, because they are persons . . . are both impelled by their nature and bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth once they come to know it and direct their whole lives in accordance with the demands of truth."262

[b]405 [/b]Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. [b]It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted[/b]: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

[b]460[/b] The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

[b]705[/b] [b]Disfigured by sin and death, man remains "in the image of God," in the image of the Son, but is deprived "of the glory of God,"66 of his "likeness." The promise made to Abraham inaugurates the economy of salvation, at the culmination of which the Son himself will assume that "image"67 and restore it in the Father's "likeness" by giving it again its Glory, the Spirit who is "the giver of life."[/b]


[b]In Summary[/b]

man is inherently good both b/c he is made in the image and likeness of God, and b/c he has w/in him the natural longing to seek after God. although sin both distorts this image in which we were all made and creates w/in us longings for ephemeral pleasures, the image of God w/in us still remains as does our deep-rooted longing for happiness in communion w/ him. thus man was, is, and will always be inherently good.

through both grace in time, and his second coming at the culmination of time, God will take this goodness that is w/in us, perfect it, bring it back to commensurate reflection of his own image, and share his glory w/ us. afterall, "the word became flesh to make us partakers of the divine nature" (CCC, #460).

i embolded some sentences to show their importance in relation to surround sentences. however, every citation is important and adds to my case, so i suggest reading every article, instead of just the highlited sentences.

anyway, i hope this helps and that it all made sense....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Aloysius]

this is one of those things that could go in circles with the insane preciseness necessary for wording such things!

man was created to be good. because of his fallen nature he has the inclination to desire evil. if we are baptized out of that fallen nature, we are again good, so long as we sustain that with a life of faith and works which keep faith alive. when we are repentent of our sins and seek God's grace, He restores our goodness.

unbaptized = you're not a Son of God. you aren't even be a daughter of God, for the PC ppl. to say everyone is a child of God because they were created by God is to degrade the radical definition being a "son of God" in the New Covenant gives. we are restored to goodness through the new covenant.

at our source we were created to be good and to desire good things. in our fallen nature, we desire bad things. we were not created to be this way, it is a disorder brought on by the fact humans chose not to live for God but for themselves. so we're disordered, Christ comes to fix us if we repent of our evil ways. If by our free will we choose to allow Christ to restore our Goodness, this is becoming a Son of God (though through baptism the soul is already marked as a son of God, whether or not they be an obedient one). He gave us the power to become sons of God, to have our full goodness restored through Him. We are not evil, we are simply disordered to desire evil. we have by our very nature as human beings a basic human dignity and worth that is good, because we were created by God. we are disordered and fallen such that we desire evil, but we are not evil beings unless we reject God's grace and turn away from him, for then our soul is evil and if we die we would spend eternity in hell.

and i prolly went in circles five times there.

pAx Ω

[the lumberjack]

first off, phatcatholic, I'll get to your post tomorrow...but WHO YOU CALLIN DAUGHTER?!?!

and Al, I understood you.

we are not inherently good. we were designed for it, but Adam's sin took that away. God is the only one that can restore any and all goodness in us.

I get it....I hope.

God bless.