?jesus Alone?

[Aloysius]

i made the point earlier when lumberjack made a comment about "Jesus alone"

in a smart-alecy way i proceeded to make my point, but now i wish to take the smart-alec out to try to get to my real point.

lumberjack clarified as to something i already understood, that of course they don't really see Christ as being all alone in the sky. i was using a hyperbole. but he admits that Christ is surrounded by the saints in heaven (not in the cannonical sense, saints as in Christians in Heaven) soooooooo if you ask Jesus for intercession, and all these people surround Jesus in the beatific vision, does Jesus blind them from these prayers or can all in the beatific visio see these prayers? why shouldn't they be able to see it, they have a full vision and comprehension of all Things Divine because they have been glorified and perfected in heaven, so I am under the impression that of course they'd see the prayers, that Jesus's heart is like a football stadium filled with all the saints and all those things which He holds in His heart are on the jumbotron. And He most certainly holds the prayers of Christian saints on earth in His heart, so do not all the saints in heaven see them?

"Christ Alone" doesn't work, because He's not alone and doesn't try to hid things from those who have done the will of the Father who He now calls friends. At the very least, understand that this cannot be compared to talking with the dead for it is by Christ's power that the saints see our prayers. It's like we're prayin to Jesus, so we're gettin space on the JumbTron, so we get exited and write "Hi Mom!" and of course since mom has better seats than us we're like "hey, help us out"

AND THAT is why if Christ is not alone in heaven, we shouldn't treat Him as such, and should acknowledge the saints in our prayers. This was my point when I said when Protestants say "Christ Alone" He sounds like a lonely guy to me, because when I pray to Jesus He isn't alone, the entire Church Triumphant knows what's goin down between me and my Lord. We're in a family relationship, not just a mere personal relationship.

PAX

[the lumberjack]

a president in a corporate office building is in his office.

everyone in the building has his phone number, and can call him when they please.

does this mean that everyone can hear every phone call to him?

God bless.

[Aloysius]

is everyone that makes it to heaven mere assosiates of God, or are they let into every secret. I thought that was the whole promise of heaven-- the beatific vision, we would comprehend all things of God.

[Apotheoun]

Christ the Head and His Body the Church are one Man, so when we ask the saints to pray for us, or when we give them veneration, we are asking for assistance from, and are venerating the person of, Christ, who lives within them. As St. Paul said, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." [Galatians 2:20] This is also why we can ask each other for prayer, because Christ is in each one of us, and so when we pray and intercede for others, it is Christ [i]in[/i] us who intercedes. The fact that the Church is the Body of Christ must never be reduced to a mere metaphor, because the life and energy flowing through the Church, is none other than Christ's own life and energy. Christ and the Church are the [i]Christus Totus[/i], the Whole Christ, and St. Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus illustrates this truth beautifully, for when Christ appeared to him, He said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?," notice that He did not say, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting My disciples?," or "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting My servants?" [cf., Acts 9:3-9] No, He didn't say either of those phrases; instead, He said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting [b][i]Me[/i][/b]?," because when a man persecutes the Church, he persecutes Christ who is the very source of Church's life and being. As I said in a previous post, the Church is the perpetual extension of the incarnation through time, and that is the whole point of the incarnation. God became man in order to unite all men to Himself and in the process to draw them all up into the very life and energy of the Trinity. The purpose of the [i]kenosis[/i] (self-emptying) of the eternal Son of God in the incarnation, is to bring about the [i]theosis[/i] (deification) of man through grace, and in this way, all men can become sons of God, in the only begotten Son of God.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 15 2004, 01:08 PM']a president in a corporate office building is in his office.

everyone in the building has his phone number, and can call him when they please.

does this mean that everyone can hear every phone call to him?

God bless.[/quote]
Yes. All he has to do is use conference call.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would also like to add a little thought:

I think it is pretty safe to say that we all think that asking someone to pray for us helps.

1.) If my mom is sick, of course I will ask you all to pray for me, and I believe that it will help.

2.) If someone is in heaven, they are closer to God than we are on earth

3.) I believe ("know" if I am a Catholic) that certain people are in Heaven (Saints, again, if I'm Catholic)

Conclusion: It logically follows that, to ask for prayers from those in heaven is AT LEAST as helpful, if not more so, than to ask people on earth to pray for you

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 15 2004, 05:08 PM'] a president in a corporate office building is in his office.

everyone in the building has his phone number, and can call him when they please.

does this mean that everyone can hear every phone call to him?

God bless. [/quote]
But God isn't alone in an office building. He's surrounded by angels and saints constantly. And the saints and angels are in the direct presence of God. Heaven as an office building analogy is contradictory to what we know from scriptures about heaven. We are not each in our own little office.

Heaven is like one great big group party. You'll love the 'stranger' standing next to you in heaven more than you are capable of loving anyone here on Earth. How could you possibly want to be separated from the other souls in heaven and especially not want to bask in the presence of God for ALL, not just part, of eternity.

Edited June 16, 2004 by 1337 k4th0l1x0r

[phatcatholic]

plus, where in the entire bible does it say that death separates us from the body of Christ?

i can ask my bro across the street to pray for me but i can't ask a saint in heaven b/c he's "dead"?

.........that's absurd

(sorry, i don't have very much patience today)

[P3chrmd]

AMEN! phat!

I TRY and explain it to folks...but sometimes i just get fed up and say just what you said! I try to show them in Rev. where the prayers of the saints are offered to God...and get this the NIV study bible says about that verse that prayers are no longer offered by the saints and that is completley old testament theology! THATS ALL the support they have for their argument...give me a break...its like their ignoring scripture! Oh well...whatever floats their boat...Im just happy I'm Catholic!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 16 2004, 06:10 PM'] plus, where in the entire bible does it say that death separates us from the body of Christ?

i can ask my bro across the street to pray for me but i can't ask a saint in heaven b/c he's "dead"?

.........that's absurd

(sorry, i don't have very much patience today) [/quote]
It never says that, it says the contrary:

Romans:8
38: For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39: nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Guest JeffCR07]

yay