I wish there was an Order that...

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

The dirt shows up a lot, too!

[TheresaThoma]

The dirt shows up a lot, too!

I actually had a discussion with a Sister about this. A couple of us were commenting on how (we thought) impractical a white habit is, either for sisters or nurses. Until Sister pointed out with a white habit if you get a really bad stain you can throw it in the wash with a bit of bleach and it comes right out. No need for worrying about washing/bleaching out the color on a specific spot. Lol!

[DominicanHeart]

The Orders I was referring to that have the Latin Mass are the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Benedictines of Mary Queen of the Apostles and the Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus. And I think they're all beautiful but they just don't have that appeal to me that the Dominicans do.

[PhuturePriest]

I'm unsure if this has already been addressed (I've been forced to read too many books to care for unnecessary reading on the side,) and though this may or may not be a welcome post, I'm going to post it anyway:

(As an aside, this is not referring to Mass preferences, but to the OP's asking of posters for their perfect ideals in communities.)

One thing I've learned in my discernment is to completely remove the idea of a "perfect" community. I wanted a community with a perfect habit, with an adequate vacation to see my family each year, with a beautiful friary/monastery, with the perfect balance of prayer and work, and a million more "perfect" things. 

I looked through probably fifty communities at least, and I was shocked to see that not one of them fit my ideal. Why? Because God doesn't want us to have a "perfect" community. 

Our vocation is primarily for our own salvation, and salvation does not come easily. Sanctification comes through bearing things that we hate, and religious life is made with things that people hate, for the specific reason that people hate them. Why? Because these things that we hate (which are objectively good,) when done, purge us of our imperfections.

When you desire to enter religious life, do not look for a community that is heaven for you, but one that is the closest thing to purgatory you can possibly find. The entire purpose of religious life is purging us of our imperfections and sanctifying us, and that's what it has always been about. 

This is of course not meaning that we should all look for bad communities with errant theology and toxic environments. There is a difference between purgation and abuse, and such an environment is detrimental to one's spiritual life rather than conducive. 

I say all of that not to be annoying, but because when you truly have that proper understanding of the meaning of religious life, you truly understand where you're drawn towards, or if you're drawn towards religious life at all. Too often we fall in love with the romance of religious life rather than its purpose, and I'm just as guilty of that as anyone else. I'm just trying to help people avoid the heartache and frustration of running after something that will be harmful to them.

The Orders I was referring to that have the Latin Mass are the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Benedictines of Mary Queen of the Apostles and the Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus. And I think they're all beautiful but they just don't have that appeal to me that the Dominicans do.

Ultimately, you're going to have to decide which one (Dominicans vs. Tridentine Mass) is more important to you.

Edited August 30, 2015 by PhuturePriest

[Egeria]

I actually had a discussion with a Sister about this. A couple of us were commenting on how (we thought) impractical a white habit is, either for sisters or nurses. Until Sister pointed out with a white habit if you get a really bad stain you can throw it in the wash with a bit of bleach and it comes right out. No need for worrying about washing/bleaching out the color on a specific spot. Lol!

That sister clearly had a habit without wool in it. If not, it would have come out of the wash beige. Believe me, I speak from experience... 

[reminiscere]

Lockport has three other sisters, named here: http://coraweb.sos.la.gov/commercialsearch/CommercialSearchDetails.aspx?CharterID=361375_YYB42. Perhaps they could've professed this year, after this last report was filed and the article that Sr. Mary Catherine linked to. Is Sr. Mary Imelda now prioress, or just president of the corporation? No clue. Again, they are not canonically Nuns of the Order of Preachers. 

In any case, I would also heartily recommend Buffalo. While not having the traditional Dominican or Roman rites for Mass (as Marbury does fairly often) they do use much Latin in their Mass and Office, and they have retained different aspects of the Dominican Rite, particularly evident in the ceremonies of the Sacred Triduum as well as other traditional Dominican customs, like different processions throughout the year, and St. Catherine de Ricci's Canticle of the Passion during Lent, etc.

[DominicanHeart]

I'm unsure if this has already been addressed (I've been forced to read too many books to care for unnecessary reading on the side,) and though this may or may not be a welcome post, I'm going to post it anyway:

(As an aside, this is not referring to Mass preferences, but to the OP's asking of posters for their perfect ideals in communities.)

One thing I've learned in my discernment is to completely remove the idea of a "perfect" community. I wanted a community with a perfect habit, with an adequate vacation to see my family each year, with a beautiful friary/monastery, with the perfect balance of prayer and work, and a million more "perfect" things. 

I looked through probably fifty communities at least, and I was shocked to see that not one of them fit my ideal. Why? Because God doesn't want us to have a "perfect" community. 

Our vocation is primarily for our own salvation, and salvation does not come easily. Sanctification comes through bearing things that we hate, and religious life is made with things that people hate, for the specific reason that people hate them. Why? Because these things that we hate (which are objectively good,) when done, purge us of our imperfections.

When you desire to enter religious life, do not look for a community that is heaven for you, but one that is the closest thing to purgatory you can possibly find. The entire purpose of religious life is purging us of our imperfections and sanctifying us, and that's what it has always been about. 

This is of course not meaning that we should all look for bad communities with errant theology and toxic environments. There is a difference between purgation and abuse, and such an environment is detrimental to one's spiritual life rather than conducive. 

I say all of that not to be annoying, but because when you truly have that proper understanding of the meaning of religious life, you truly understand where you're drawn towards, or if you're drawn towards religious life at all. Too often we fall in love with the romance of religious life rather than its purpose, and I'm just as guilty of that as anyone else. I'm just trying to help people avoid the heartache and frustration of running after something that will be harmful to them.

Ultimately, you're going to have to decide which one (Dominicans vs. Tridentine Mass) is more important to you.

I completely 100% understand where you're coming from with this. It makes a lot of sense. I hadn't really thought of it that way.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I'm unsure if this has already been addressed (I've been forced to read too many books to care for unnecessary reading on the side,) and though this may or may not be a welcome post, I'm going to post it anyway:

(As an aside, this is not referring to Mass preferences, but to the OP's asking of posters for their perfect ideals in communities.)

One thing I've learned in my discernment is to completely remove the idea of a "perfect" community. I wanted a community with a perfect habit, with an adequate vacation to see my family each year, with a beautiful friary/monastery, with the perfect balance of prayer and work, and a million more "perfect" things. 

I looked through probably fifty communities at least, and I was shocked to see that not one of them fit my ideal. Why? Because God doesn't want us to have a "perfect" community. 

Our vocation is primarily for our own salvation, and salvation does not come easily. Sanctification comes through bearing things that we hate, and religious life is made with things that people hate, for the specific reason that people hate them. Why? Because these things that we hate (which are objectively good,) when done, purge us of our imperfections.

When you desire to enter religious life, do not look for a community that is heaven for you, but one that is the closest thing to purgatory you can possibly find. The entire purpose of religious life is purging us of our imperfections and sanctifying us, and that's what it has always been about. 

This is of course not meaning that we should all look for bad communities with errant theology and toxic environments. There is a difference between purgation and abuse, and such an environment is detrimental to one's spiritual life rather than conducive. 

I say all of that not to be annoying, but because when you truly have that proper understanding of the meaning of religious life, you truly understand where you're drawn towards, or if you're drawn towards religious life at all. Too often we fall in love with the romance of religious life rather than its purpose, and I'm just as guilty of that as anyone else. I'm just trying to help people avoid the heartache and frustration of running after something that will be harmful to them.

Ultimately, you're going to have to decide which one (Dominicans vs. Tridentine Mass) is more important to you.

FP--I thought this was a well written, well thought out post. But, I'm not sure about the bolded paragraph. Obviously, God wants different things for each of us, and we need to be looking for God's will in our lives.

But, I'm not sure about the idea of picking a religious Community based on which one is the "...closest thing to purgatory you can possibly find." I think that there is a reason why there are religious Communities with different charisms and apostolates. God has given people different gifts and different ways of approaching Him, and from what I have read on Phatmass, it seems that a discerner is best off if they try to find a Community that fits their natural spirituality and where they feel comfortable and at home. Whether in or out of religious life, life itself manages to provide us with an constant array of things that we find difficult and require us to work on our imperfections--there are no shortages of this for anyone. Based on comments here on Phatmass from those who have been in religious life or are currently in religious life, if nothing else, communal living, while being a great gift, also provides daily ways to learn to try to understand and forgive other people. 

However, I think your basic point was a good one--namely that the "perfect" religious Community does not exist. In the end, a discerner has to trust God when making the choice of a Community to join. Heck, even if a Community somehow managed to seem "perfect" when the discerner entered, life is constantly changing, and so, over a lifetime a Community will also see changes. The Community in which a discerner celebrates their 50th Jubilee may look very different from the Community the discerner joined.

Edited August 30, 2015 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Dominican Heart, I began my discernment in much the same way having grown up almost exclusively with the EF. I was a novice for 2 years with the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. But I had a wise spiritual director who, when I said that the Latin Mass was in my blood answered, "No, it's in your experience." I had to learn to discern according to CHARISM and let a lot of what I thought I needed to live religious life, die. It is part of true poverty of spirit. There are some things that all of us couldn't probably want as part of religious life but religious is so much more than the form of liturgy. So, a lot had to die within me in becoming a Dominican Nun. And then God could really enter in. And then I began to see I was called to Dominican contemplative life. Religious life is about leaving EVERYTHING to follow Christ. There will be many, many similar such renunciations in religious life.

I would just say that many of the customs that reminiscere mentioned as what the Buffalo community does MANY Dominican monasteries do but it doesn't make us who we are as Dominicans.

That sister clearly had a habit without wool in it. If not, it would have come out of the wash beige. Believe me, I speak from experience... 

Exactly! Also, not all religious are free to throw their habits in the wash whenever they want!

[Sponsa-Christi]

FP--I thought this was a well written, well thought out post. But, I'm not sure about the bolded paragraph. Obviously, God wants different things for each of us, and we need to be looking for God's will in our lives.

But, I'm not sure about the idea of picking a religious Community based on which one is the "...closest thing to purgatory you can possibly find." I think that there is a reason why there are religious Communities with different charisms and apostolates. God has given people different gifts and different ways of approaching Him, and from what I have read on Phatmass, it seems that a discerner is best off if they try to find a Community that fits their natural spirituality and where they feel comfortable and at home. Whether in or out of religious life, life itself manages to provide us with an constant array of things that we find difficult and require us to work on our imperfections--there are no shortages of this for anyone. Based on comments here on Phatmass from those who have been in religious life or are currently in religious life, if nothing else, communal living, while being a great gift, also provides daily ways to learn to try to understand and forgive other people. 

However, I think your basic point was a good one--namely that the "perfect" religious Community does not exist. In the end, a discerner has to trust God when making the choice of a Community to join. Heck, even if a Community somehow managed to seem "perfect" when the discerner entered, life is constantly changing, and so, over a lifetime a Community will also see changes. The Community in which a discerner celebrates their 50th Jubilee may look very different from the Community the discerner joined.

This was almost exactly what I was thinking. FP does have a good point about letting go of the idea of finding the "perfect" community, but I'm not sure how well it would go over if a discerner were to tell the Vocation Director: "This community is my idea of Purgatory!" 

Also, I remember hearing an expression once that those who enter a monastery in order to punish themselves actually wind up punishing the community!

Dominican Heart, I began my discernment in much the same way having grown up almost exclusively with the EF. I was a novice for 2 years with the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. But I had a wise spiritual director who, when I said that the Latin Mass was in my blood answered, "No, it's in your experience." I had to learn to discern according to CHARISM and let a lot of what I thought I needed to live religious life, die. It is part of true poverty of spirit. There are some things that all of us couldn't probably want as part of religious life but religious is so much more than the form of liturgy. So, a lot had to die within me in becoming a Dominican Nun. And then God could really enter in. And then I began to see I was called to Dominican contemplative life. Religious life is about leaving EVERYTHING to follow Christ. There will be many, many similar such renunciations in religious life.

This is kind of a theoretical question on my part (and may be too off-topic---if so, my apologies), but I would be interested to hear thoughts from some of the religious here on the relationship between finding a charism you relate to profoundly and embracing "poverty of spirit" by letting go of your preferences for a religious community. On a superficial level, this would almost seem to be a bit of a contradiction, but of course on a deeper level I know it's not. I hope that makes sense!

[PhuturePriest]

FP--I thought this was a well written, well thought out post. But, I'm not sure about the bolded paragraph. Obviously, God wants different things for each of us, and we need to be looking for God's will in our lives.

But, I'm not sure about the idea of picking a religious Community based on which one is the "...closest thing to purgatory you can possibly find." I think that there is a reason why there are religious Communities with different charisms and apostolates. God has given people different gifts and different ways of approaching Him, and from what I have read on Phatmass, it seems that a discerner is best off if they try to find a Community that fits their natural spirituality and where they feel comfortable and at home. Whether in or out of religious life, life itself manages to provide us with an constant array of things that we find difficult and require us to work on our imperfections--there are no shortages of this for anyone. Based on comments here on Phatmass from those who have been in religious life or are currently in religious life, if nothing else, communal living, while being a great gift, also provides daily ways to learn to try to understand and forgive other people. 

However, I think your basic point was a good one--namely that the "perfect" religious Community does not exist. In the end, a discerner has to trust God when making the choice of a Community to join. Heck, even if a Community somehow managed to seem "perfect" when the discerner entered, life is constantly changing, and so, over a lifetime a Community will also see changes. The Community in which a discerner celebrates their 50th Jubilee may look very different from the Community the discerner joined.

Of course, it's all a matter of opinion. Saint Thomas Aquinas said that choosing a community that is more lax in rules than a stricter one is a sin. I disagree with that, but the aim of killing your desires has always been an integral part of religious life.

Obviously this does not mean the killing of personality, fun, or specific charisms. Perhaps I should have been clearer, but it was a long post and I didn't want to take too long.

For instance, I could join the Missionaries of Charity, but their charism doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. Living with them would be hell for me, rather than purgatory. 

Or I could join the Dominicans, whose spirituality and charism appeals to me far more, but whose life would also most certainly sanctify me.

The below paragraph is what I'm talking about. The poverty of spirit and giving up what we want in favor of what God wants in all aspects of our life. The good news is, God wants our happiness, so if we follow what He wants, we're in good shape.

Dominican Heart, I began my discernment in much the same way having grown up almost exclusively with the EF. I was a novice for 2 years with the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. But I had a wise spiritual director who, when I said that the Latin Mass was in my blood answered, "No, it's in your experience." I had to learn to discern according to CHARISM and let a lot of what I thought I needed to live religious life, die. It is part of true poverty of spirit. There are some things that all of us couldn't probably want as part of religious life but religious is so much more than the form of liturgy. So, a lot had to die within me in becoming a Dominican Nun. And then God could really enter in. And then I began to see I was called to Dominican contemplative life. Religious life is about leaving EVERYTHING to follow Christ. There will be many, many similar such renunciations in religious life.

I would just say that many of the customs that reminiscere mentioned as what the Buffalo community does MANY Dominican monasteries do but it doesn't make us who we are as Dominicans.

Exactly! Also, not all religious are free to throw their habits in the wash whenever they want!

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

"Of course, it's all a matter of opinion. Saint Thomas Aquinas said that choosing a community that is more lax in rules than a stricter one is a sin. I disagree with that, but the aim of killing your desires has always been an integral part of religious life."

???? Can you cite your source? I've never read this. In fact, St. Thomas says just the opposite!

[Egeria]

Exactly! Also, not all religious are free to throw their habits in the wash whenever they want!

Indeed, but one can do a lot of damage with a bucket in one's cell. And then have to go and confess to the laundry sister!  (Full disclosure: it was only a scapular and not a habit, but that meant ending up with a habit and scapular of different colours...)

[puellapaschalis]

Indeed, but one can do a lot of damage with a bucket in one's cell. And then have to go and confess to the laundry sister!  (Full disclosure: it was only a scapular and not a habit, but that meant ending up with a habit and scapular of different colours...)

I'm sensing a little bit of residual trauma here Please do come and sit down and have a cup of tea and a biscuit. It'll be ok!

[Antigonos]

 

Ultimately, you're going to have to decide which one (Dominicans vs. Tridentine Mass) is more important to you.

What are you up to these days, PP?  Either you've been away for a while, or I'm not reading the correct threads

[Antigonos]

 

Ultimately, you're going to have to decide which one (Dominicans vs. Tridentine Mass) is more important to you.

What are you up to these days, PP?  Either you've been away for a while, or I'm not reading the correct threads

[PhuturePriest]

"Of course, it's all a matter of opinion. Saint Thomas Aquinas said that choosing a community that is more lax in rules than a stricter one is a sin. I disagree with that, but the aim of killing your desires has always been an integral part of religious life."

???? Can you cite your source? I've never read this. In fact, St. Thomas says just the opposite!

I'm sorry to say that I can't. A religious priest told me this once, but there's always the possibility that he was wrong.

What are you up to these days, PP?  Either you've been away for a while, or I'm not reading the correct threads

I'm currently interning and continuing my seminary application with the diocese, so I'm afraid I don't have much time for Phatmassing.

[TheresaThoma]

I'm sensing a little bit of residual trauma here Please do come and sit down and have a cup of tea and a biscuit. It'll be ok!

Can I come too. I don't have trauma such as this but I do like tea and cookies!

On topic though of desires about a community particularly their liturgy. My first experiences with Liturgy of the Hours were with some wonderful Dominican Brothers. Which meant, chanting choir to choir, organ etc. The whole shebang, I especially loved the organ playing during LotH. I really wanted any potential future community to have a very similar liturgy. I started discerning with the community I am seriously discerning with about two to three years ago. It took over a year and visits to a couple of different priories including the mother house to notice something that would seem rather obvious. They do chant the LotH but it is all acappella. They don't use or even have organ music at all! I was rather shocked when I finally noticed because I didn't miss it one bit. Something that I thought would be a major deciding factor for me was not even something I had thought about. I tell this story because I have found out that when you find the right community things just fall into place.

[Egeria]

I'm sensing a little bit of residual trauma here Please do come and sit down and have a cup of tea and a biscuit. It'll be ok!

Actually, it wasn't too bad - and was one of those things everyone joked about a few years later. But tea would still be welcome!

[Gabriela]

I agree with FP in his first post and admit that I twinged when I read in the OP, "...so that I can have both". I've heard that approach to discernment referred to as "checklist discernment" or the "college admissions" approach. It don't work.

@Sr Mary Catharine OP: I was hoping you'd tell your discernment story!