A Battered Faith

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:04 AM'] I guess the OP isn't going to be discussed.

Wonder why?

How about we discuss what the story was about?

Or does that upset everyone too much? [/quote]
I don't know what OP means, I'm sorry.

And what in the world was the reason for that last statement? That was pure conjecture and ridicule. It was not of love.

[cmotherofpirl]

Love is patient and kind, I remember somebody wrote about that once...

[Apotheoun]

[quote]YOU may believe you have the ONLY TRUTH, but a swarm of Catholics doing the EXODUS number, those with firsthand knowledge, do not.[/quote]

I was a member of the United Methodist Church until my conversion to Catholicism in 1988 (as I said in an earlier post, 1988 was an important year). The Methodist Church had just over 12 million members in 1968, but it now has only 8 to 8.5 million members today. The fact that people change Churches is nothing new. But as a Catholic I trust in the promise of Christ that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church," and that by the grace of God people will continue to come to the fulness of faith found only in Christ's Catholic Church.

[DojoGrant]

Bruce,

I haven't seen anyone deny that we have had worldy bishops. I have no doubt some of them have been corrupted, and I pray for their repentence. I pray daily for holy priests and bishops, and I know that the Church will heal from this in time, and will be stronger from it.

I don't see why one has to take your purely negative attitude and run with it as the only option. The Church isn't dying. It was hurt, and we're in a period of recovery in which we all need to be charitable and open to forgiving and bringing orthodoxy and orthodox education back into the light. We need to not forget these mistakes, but we do not need to dwell on them as if recovery was not an option.

If people wish to leave the Church because they have lost hope, then I certainly pity them, for we are to never lose hope. Bad bishops or not, the faith remains the same. The Eucharist remains the same. God remains the same. I will remain with my God and the Eucharist and will work hard until the storm passes.

You call what we do here "patting ourselves on the back." I call what we're doing here the New Evangelization. We're youth helping other youth, the future of tomorrow, be excited and in love with their Catholic faith so that we can have a promising, hopeful future.

I have hope. You do not. That is the difference between us.

[Bruce S]

[quote]But as a Catholic I trust in the promise of Christ that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church," and that by the grace of God people will continue to come to the fulness of faith found only in Christ's Catholic Church. [/quote]

HIS church isn't the Catholic Church.

It is ALL believers.

At the time that statement was made there was NO denomination, nor even a functioning church in the city of Rome.

The gates of hell, are inside the Catholic Church it is sad to say, my personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit is taking a lot of people safely out of a dangerous situation.

I applaud your decision to leave the Methodists for the Catholic Church, that is certainly your right, and you are to be commended for voting with your feet to where you find a home that suits your beliefs.

Others vote with their feet in other directions.

Best.

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:16 AM']
HIS church isn't the Catholic Church.

It is ALL believers.

At the time that statement was made there was NO denomination, nor even a functioning church in the city of Rome.

The gates of hell, are inside the Catholic Church it is sad to say, my personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit is taking a lot of people safely out of a dangerous situation.

I applaud your decision to leave the Methodists for the Catholic Church, that is certainly your right, and you are to be commended for voting with your feet to where you find a home that suits your beliefs.

Others vote with their feet in other directions.

Best. [/quote]
You're right, Bruce. There was no denomination back then. There still isn't. There is but one Church, Christ's Church. It just happened to pick up the moniker of "Catholic" along the way to represent just that, its universality.

There are still no denominations, for Christ's Church can not be split. There is one Church, and it is Catholic.

And I'm glad your "opinion" (your own word) that the gates of hell have entered the Catholic Church is just an opinion. My faith is secure, and I know for a fact that the gates of hell have not prevailed.

Yes, others vote for different directions. But only one direction points to Christ Jesus.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:16 AM'] The gates of hell, are inside the Catholic Church it is sad to say, my personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit is taking a lot of people safely out of a dangerous situation. [/quote]
Of course I disagree with your offensive remark about the Catholic Church. I would never say that the "gates of hell" are in a Protestant Church, because although I have come to the firm conviction that Protestantism is in error regarding a great many things, I have no doubt that the vast magority of Protestants are sincere in their beliefs. I pray constantly that all Protestants will come to see the errors of the Reformers and return to the Church that their ancestors all belonged to, i.e., the Catholic Church. For it alone is the one true Church of Christ. But I leave that to the will of God, and I trust in His providence and grace.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Apotheoun

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 12:16 PM']
HIS church isn't the Catholic Church.

It is ALL believers.

At the time that statement was made there was NO denomination, nor even a functioning church in the city of Rome.

The gates of hell, are inside the Catholic Church it is sad to say, my personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit is taking a lot of people safely out of a dangerous situation.

I applaud your decision to leave the Methodists for the Catholic Church, that is certainly your right, and you are to be commended for voting with your feet to where you find a home that suits your beliefs.

Others vote with their feet in other directions.

Best. [/quote]
Nope.

Jesus said there will be poeple who cry "Lord Lord" and he will say I never knew you.
There was a Church in Rome even before Peter got there to take over.

Remember we conform ourselves to the Church, not find a group that suits our current beliefs.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

By your statements, Bruce, evil forces in the world are dwindling. The Catholic Church is losing 'membership' and people are being led by your 'holy spirit.' I bet this is the same spirit that is leading people to accept abortion and homosexual marriage. Let's all praise this secularism! (end sarcasm)

Yes, there are alot of people leaving the church. And my experience with people who are leaving is that most of them are not becoming 'born again' and becoming protestant. They are at best, apathetic, or at worst, extremely bitter about all religion and need to be prayed for. But at the same time the Church needs all of the living Catholics to all become Church Militant. Even Jesus says he will prune the branches that do not bear fruit.

[Paladin D]

[color=red][b]Question Bruce:[/b][/color] [b]If numbers determine truth, does that mean secularistic mentality and belief is truth? Look at our society![/b]

[Budge]

The Vatican does not hold a monopoly on Christiandom.

Connie is a soon be ex-Catholic I suppose. I will pray she finds a good church. My church is an incredible blessing to my life. I have grown in my relationship with Christ. I have leanred what true Christian fellowship is and been extremely blessed. Everytime I go to church I learn something new about God from His Word.

[quote]I am an alien in the neo-modern, mega-Catholic Church; lost in austere, cavernous, unruly monstrosities, where I may no longer worship, venerate and reflect, but now must raucously "assemble" in the din of an irreverent "gathering space."[/quote]

I agree with her. Catholic churches are far too large (problem for those mega churches of Protestant persuasion too for true community to blossom) The neo-modernism truly is a problem. I know when I came back after 13 years in UU, they had become more like the UUs in every way. The Catholic Church has become very secularized with modern values, collusion with the world.

[quote]And now, my church has become a bastion of hypocrisy, mired for two nightmarish years in a monumental, devastating, unending sex abuse scandal. When our saintly, beloved pope speaks, the world snickers, his moral authority undermined, his own house in disarray. And, in his twilight, this great man must bear the burdensome reality that he let this one get by him; his 25-year legacy of holiness stained by the worst scandal in modern church history. Our church transformed into a war zone; our battlefield littered with wounded souls; our priesthood offered up on a platter for sexual predators to devour.[/quote]

Just stepping up instead of pointing fingers would have worked wonders. The institution has become its own enemy where beauracracy over Christian love has been allowed to fester.

The Catholic Church is too big for its own good. Too behemoth. Too disconnected from itself.

[quote]Worldly, arrogant bishops fiddled while Rome burned. Confident they were above the law, they artfully dodged prosecutors, abdicated societal obligations, lived in palatial mansions, vacationed in seaside villas, drove fancy cars and wasted untold millions of our hard-earned dollars on lawyers, hush-money, country-club treatment centers and grotesque, monster churches and cathedrals. Our children, teachers, schools and poor urban parishes were callously abandoned; our disabled children were excluded from our elitist Catholic school system.[/quote]

She is so right. And today they are taking money away from the poor first and foremost.


Praying for you Connie!

Yes many people have left and abandoned Christian faith all together. I come from a family of total agnostics, atheists who have openly avowed these beleifs. They go to church as a ritual that is seperated from everyday life. That is one thing I have noticed about Catholic church, they have liberalized, paganized and intellectualized the Christian faith to the point that the gospel has been obliterated. People think what do these rituals and such have to do with my day to day life? In fact I never heard Catholic sermons or teachings in any of the RCCs that I attended that really took peoples day to day lives into consideration. I am having the wonder and glory of learning how the Christian faith can DIRECTLY transform ones life.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Is this "massive" amount of people leaving the Catholic Church for 1500's theology supposed to mean that our religion is wrong? I think not. I take comfort in the words of St. Cyprian of Carthage:
[quote]"There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that [b]even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ[/b]. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are secretly [i.e., invisibly] in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but it is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another."[/quote]

Budge,
[quote]I know when I came back after 13 years in UU, they had become more like the UUs in every way. The Catholic Church has become very secularized with modern values, collusion with the world.[/quote]
Just because you had a bad Catholic parish doesn't mean they represent the entire Church. Trust me, I've seen good and bad ones.

Edited June 16, 2004 by thedude

[Crusader_4]

Well...Bruce if it is the case your claim it is i feel sorry for the Catholics in the United States (i dont believe it is though) thankfully the Winnipeg Free Press printed an article last year on the decline and rise of secularism in our province and an interesting stastic surfaced only the Orthodox and Catholic Church maintained members and grew substantial out of the mainstream church's not lutheran, anglican (was hit really hard), presbyterian, bapstis, and pentecostal (showed some growth) but it was really these two that were able to grow. I am not saying that your statitcs are wrong but up here in Manitoba they dont seem to be fact. I was at the Rite of Intiation this year and we waited for over four hours during the ceremony since all the new candidates had to sign their names i dont know about you but in Manitoab Canada Catholicsm is alive and well. There are parts of the country were it suffers (quebec) but from our persepctive its a great picture.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Bruce please plainly state your topic of debate for this thread or I will close it.

So far it seems that this thread exists simply to antagonize.

God Bless.

[Aloysius]

it is clear to me that the Church is undergoing a test to see who is truly faithful and who has little faith, just like in John 6:66 some will leave, and others will stand by the truth. your predictions of the fall of the Roman Catholic Church are not new, people have believed that whole-heartedly in the past, but it has yet to happen, bruce. so continue to predict something wordly people have been predicting for 2000 years, and we'll keep in mind the words of our King who promised to defend us from the enemy. it truly is THAT SIMPLE. fruits don't mean numbers and statistics, fruits mean TRUTH, we don't sway to the whims of the people in our flock, if a bunch of people in our flock suddenly become heretics they either leave the church, repent, or are excommunicated. they cannot CHANGE the Church, only God is left up to doing that. those who hear His call go into position to become tools for God to use.

pAx

[theculturewarrior]

I quit responding to Bruce, because for some reason he never responds to me. *grin*

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Jun 16 2004, 05:22 PM'] I quit responding to Bruce, because for some reason he never responds to me. *grin* [/quote]
I'm offering 3:2 odds that bruce responds to this thread before he starts another one.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:16 AM'] HIS church isn't the Catholic Church.

It is ALL believers. [/quote]
You're inserting a false dichotomy here. The Catholic Church is ALL believers.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 09:22 AM'] Another Catholic is about to become a plain old, just Christian it would seem. [/quote]
[quote]Connie is a soon be ex-Catholic I suppose.[/quote]
I wouldn't get my hopes up. She sounds more like she's soon to become a traditionalist.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote]Christiandom. [/quote]

Christendom. It is spelled C-H-R-I-S-T-E-N-D-O-M. (Proper spelling and pronounciation of that word is a big pet peeve of mine. Sue me.)


[quote]Bruce please plainly state your topic of debate for this thread or I will close it.

So far it seems that this thread exists simply to antagonize.

God Bless. [/quote]


Still waiting Bruce...