Faith Alone Denies Free Will?

[DojoGrant]

Is the following logic wrong? If so, don't just say so, but be precise and provide definitions to make sure words are being used in the same way.

1) Salvation is obtained by faith alone.
2) Faith is the free gift of God. It is not merited by anyone.
3) Salavation is therefore both free and unmerited.
4) Works play no part in salvation.
5) Work includes both physical (ex: manual labor) and
mental (ex: calculating math in the head) faculties.
6) Making a decision is a process of the mental faculties and is thus work.
7) Therefore, making a decision to accept the gift of faith is a work.
8) Salvation is obtained without acceptance of Christ (a work), thus, man is not
involved in his salvation
9) Man does not have free will to chose or reject God; he is predestined to salvation
or damnation

[XIX]

Holy cow...

I tell ya...at first glane, I can't see a hole in your logic. Maybe you could contend that faith is not a work in itself, but you seemed to explain that it is.

[the lumberjack]

can you quantify your faith?

as in, you can cloth the naked and feed the hungry... but can you SHOW me how much faith you have?

or that you even have faith?

[dUSt]

This is a point that I've been repeating for the longest. I've always thought that the act of accepting Christ is a work in itself, so therefore, necessary for salvation.

Nice job laying it out.

[Quietfire]

oh, I'm sure I will mess this up. But I'll give it a shot.

[quote]1) Salvation is obtained by faith alone.
2) Faith is the free gift of God. It is not merited by anyone.
3) Salavation is therefore both free and unmerited.
4) Works play no part in salvation.
5) Work includes both physical (ex: manual labor) and
mental (ex: calculating math in the head) faculties.
6) Making a decision is a process of the mental faculties and is thus work.
7) Therefore, making a decision to accept the gift of faith is a work.
8) Salvation is obtained without acceptance of Christ (a work), thus, man is not
involved in his salvation
9) Man does not have free will to chose or reject God; he is predestined to salvation
or damnation[/quote]

1. Since I have always believed that Salvation and saved means two different things, Faith (which is a gift) cannot mean salvation obtained. In Rom 5-9, Paul says that humanity will be 'saved'. Elsewhere in Romans he refers to 'salvation' (1-16, 10-10, 13-11). Paul sees salvation as a total consequence of God's action in history through Christ-past, present and future. As such, salvation encompasses the other effects of Jesus' death and resurrection: redemption,reconciliation, and justification.

Salvation, however, is not simply a catchall term. it also has a nuance of meaning all its own. For Paul salvation refers primarily to the Endtime victory reserved by God for his redeemed creation. So Salvation represents the sum total of God's action throughout time in making his creation free.

2. Faith is a free gift, one of the seven gifts of God. Faith, hope, charity. the moral virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude.
3. I hope #1 covers this.
4. Personally, I would think that one would always have to work out their salvation. Nothing is handed to us on a plate.
5. yes
6. yes
7. Yes but it's what you do with it that counts.
8. This one I'm not sure. Since God is working hard for our salvation, that wouldnt lead me to believe I should just sit on my laurels waiting for the finish. By choosing to do good, to the Glory of God, I would think that would also benifit us in our salvation. God guides us, wants us to choose him. But Satan is always ever present to lead some astray. Knowing the difference and choosing to do good couldnt hurt.
9. I would think that man always has the right to choose God, or reject God. Isnt that what free will is?

Ok, Beat me up. I've got my head covered.


Peace.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Quietfire

[Guest JeffCR07]

Actually guys, I'm pretty sure that is not exactly what the Church teaches, because you need to talk about the nature of Grace. We got into that in the post about Pelagius so lemme copy for you the juicy part of the discussion:

My Quote:

[quote]While the doctrine of concupisense had not been developed in Pelagius' time, it is clear from his writings that he would not have espoused it. He argued that merely having free will means that we can choose to be saved. This is not the case, because of concupisense.

I will use an analogy:

A man is standing in a room, and their are two doors that he can enter. He is free to choose to enter whichever door he wants. However, behind the first is an endless pit and behind the second is a raging fire.

This is the effect of concupisense. Yes, we have free will, but it cannot save us. Here is where Grace comes in:

Now, God, in mercy, sees the man in the room and wills, through Grace, a third door into existence, a door that leads to paradise. Now, only because of Grace, is it possible for the man to be saved. However, he can still choose. He could walk to his death by choosing one of the other two doors (read: Reject the Spirit and deny Grace) but if he chooses salvation, it is ONLY as a result of God's bestowing of Grace.

Thus, contrary to Pelagius the Church teaches that free will is not the necessary Grace from God that opens the door to salvation, though, once Grace has been bestowed upon us, it is by free will that we choose to use it or not[/quote]

Icthus' response:

[quote]Doesn't this deny the sufficency of grace? I.E. Grace is necessary to secure salvation for men, but not sufficent.[/quote]

My answer:

[quote]Not exactly, but it is getting into a semantical argument and is where, admittedly, the analogy breaks down. However, its a great question, and I'll try to answer it the best I can, though it may seem to be a roundabout answer, so bear with me. 

The Church Teaches that, say, a Zulu Tribesman, can go to heaven, even though he does not know Christ or the Church. How? This is because, throughout his life, he can exert his free will, and he can do good deeds. But don't all good deeds necessarily come from God? Yes, they do. If a Zulu does a good deed, it is good because the Spirit is using his free actions as a means of accomplishing the will of God. There is salvific Grace in this fact. Thus, by living a good life, one who has never heard the Good News can be saved through Grace.

For the Zulu, Grace was attached to his exercising of his free will, though, unlike Pelagius' teaching, it is not inherent in his free will.

Moreover, it proves the necessity AND sufficiency of Grace.
But how do we apply this to the analogy?

In the analogy, Grace is the creation of a third door, leading to salvation. But Grace also comes in the form of the Man knowing that the door exists. God has created the way, and has given the man the ability to acknowledge it. (ie we can learn the teachings of Christ, and the Church).

What does this mean? It means that, if ever anyone chooses the 3rd door, he is doing so because, BY GRACE ALONE, he has come to know of its existence. Thus, Grace is the only means by which the action can be done, and his totally sufficient as a means of salvation.

This is because, if ever anyone chooses, through free will, to enter the door of eternal life, their choice is a manifestation of the Grace of God at work in their life.

I hope that makes sense!

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff[/quote]

So, basically the way it works is the following: Grace alone is what saves us. We cannot - even by our actions - save ourselves. However, through grace, we can exercise our free will in a way that brings us towards God.

Hope that helps.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Quietfire]

I guess what Im trying to say is that simply believing in God isnt enough to merit us a walk through the pearly gates. We should always strive to know God better. Since he is our Father, we should always keep him in mind and do his will.

Its one thing to love God, but to love God without knowing him is kindof like just having a crush on Him. And as fickle as we are, it wouldnt last long. Only when we come to really know him do we understand why we are here and what we are destined for.

The chief end of man is to glorify God.



Peace.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Quietfire

[Guest JeffCR07]

no one is going to beat you up quietfire, lol

[DojoGrant]

Martin Luther denied free will. It was the only way he could justify salvation by faith alone.

[FaustinaVianney]

I was talking to Fr Pontifex the other week and he said that grace is a constant thing. It is not something that gets poured upon you at one or more points in your life. So, God is constantly pouring His grace upon us. In our free will we choose to accept this grace or reject it therefore making it a work. Is this right?

[Quietfire]

*Quietfire slowly uncovers head. :hide:

Edited June 16, 2004 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

Edit (by me)

an oooopsy!

Edited June 16, 2004 by Quietfire

[DojoGrant]

My point was to not speak on Catholic soteriology, but those who believe in once-saved-always-saved. In essense, there is a point in time where one is "saved," thus being rewarded with eternal security of one's eternal destiny (heaven). Such people deny that such eternal life with God is earned, and that it has nothing to do with works (cooperation). Therefore, if God does everything and man does nothing (in the cooperative sense), then such people deny free will, the freedom to choose to accept God or reject Him. And if such free will is lacking here, one can hardly claim to have free will at all.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Jun 16 2004, 08:14 PM'] Martin Luther denied free will. It was the only way he could justify salvation by faith alone. [/quote]
Not so sure about Luther, but Calvin is the one that sticks out in this particular subject.

[DojoGrant]

Let me try it from the opposite vantage point

1) Works are not physical alone, but mental. Therefore, the act of acceptance by a person is a work of the will, of the mind.
2) We are justified by faith.
3) Faith is the free gift of God, unmerited.
4) It follows that justification, too, is a free gift of God, unmerited.

There are only two possible conclusions based on the above:

1) Justification by faith alone is sufficient for eternal salvation, reserved for the justified, and is wholly the work of God, apart from human cooperation. Therefore, God who is all-knowing and all-powerful has predestined human beings either to heaven or hell before the beginning of time.

2) Eternal salvation is a joint effort between the grace of faith which leads to justification, and the cooperation of man (works). If man works with God, then it is man who chooses his eternal destiny.

Conclusion one denies free will. Conclusion two supports free will.

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 16 2004, 01:40 PM'] Not so sure about Luther, but Calvin is the one that sticks out in this particular subject. [/quote]
Read Luther's "Bondage of the Will," a rebuttal to Erasmus' "Freedom of the Will." Luther even commends Erasmus for recognizing that it is the lack of free will that is at the heart of his theology.

Edited June 16, 2004 by DojoGrant

[Guest JeffCR07]

dojo, I understand your point, but in order to be true to the Magisterium, I think it is necessary to make sure that everyone understands that it is not a very straightforward issue.

The only really short answer I can give is the following:

Eternal life cannot be "earned" by our works, nor can it be "merited" by them.

However:
Faith and works are absolutely intertwined. They cannot be seperated. Faith is expressed in works, and works give truth to faith.

A man who is "saved by faith" will be a man of good works. Period

The works of a man are like a mirror into his soul, and a reflection of his faith. This is the problem that the once-saved-always-saved christians fall into:

They would argue that no sin, regardless of how grevious, can remove a person from God's Grace once he is in to. So, to them, a man who has been "saved" can, in his dying breath, spit on the face of Christ and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and, because he was once saved, he remains saved.

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Jun 16 2004, 12:06 PM'] 4) Works play no part in salvation. [/quote]
I don't agree with you right here, and here's why. I could be wrong, but this is what I have been told. I'd appreciate feedback and possible corrections, too, because this is what I've been taught in a Catholic school and I'd like to know if it's wrong.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are "saved by grace, through faith, and it is not a result of works, lest none can boast." However, it also says, sometimes in verses eight and nine, sometimes in ten, that we are "saved by grace, through faith, [i]acted out in works."[/i] Now, why would works have anything to do with it? Our works actually play a huge part in our salvation - if my "works" are mortal sins, I [i]have[/i] no salvation if I don't Confess them. If my works are venial sins, they hinder my relationship with God and make me weak to temptation to commit mortal sins, and therefore hinder my chance at salvation. If my works are good works, perhaps one of the Corporal Works of Mercy, then they will [i]not[/i] create my salvation, because I am not saved through grace. It is said that good works can shorten our time in Purgatory. (I remember this, but I don't have a resource on hand - sorry.) So, in conclusion, our works do not [i]make[/i] our salvation, but they can [i]break[/i] it. They do play a part in salvation, even if we are saved by grace and not works.

[DojoGrant]

voiciblanche,

Again, I'm not writing this from a Catholic perspective. This is what a non-Catholic would say. They would say their salvation involves no works of man, that it is purely of God without human cooperation. I am not representing the Catholic belief, but am attempting to show, using their own theology, the logical conclusion.

[voiciblanche]

Okay. Sorry - I'd typed that up before reading the rest of the thread. But at least now I know I'm not terribly, terribly wrong.

Edited June 16, 2004 by voiciblanche