Seriously considering leaving the church because of position on sister's marriage

[Kevin]

13 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Where does the Church call baptized Catholics who marry outside the Church fornicators. Please find it directly and stop assuming.

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

If they aren't validly married (that is, its not even a natural marriage), they are fornicating. Though if my sister had married a few years earlier and made a formal defection, she would have been really married, but nope, too late.

[KnightofChrist]

Just now, Kevin said:

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

If they aren't validly married (that is, its not even a natural marriage), they are fornicating. Though if my sister had married a few years earlier and made a formal defection, she would have been really married, but nope, too late.

Yes I'm sorry I thought that when she became Calvinist she would have publicly defected from the Church, but that requires her writing her Bishop.

My sister is in a similar boat, but she seems to have no wish to be married in any way, and least your sister has some bond. Mine made her choices she continues to live by them, all I can do is pray for her. My getting angry with the Church or leaving the Church will not make the Church wrong or anything any better than it is now.  It would just hurt me and make me something of a contradiction. I want her to accept the Faith so I must also. I'm sorry if we have not been able to calm you or give you the answer you wanted.

[Basilisa Marie]

Okay Kevin cool your jets. 

There's this thing called a radical sanation that can fix things, should your siblings want to have the Church recognize their marriage. 

One of the many hats I wear is tribunal advocate, where I help people get annulments and clarify their status in the Church. Anyone who is a baptized Catholic has to get married according to Church form, otherwise it's not a valid marriage because Catholics are held to a higher standard. That's just the way it is. 

But there's this thing called a radical sanation. It means "healing from the root." Sometimes, the Church can use an administrative process that will recognize the original exchange of consent as a valid marriage when something was otherwise lacking. Usually this happens when a baptized Catholic doesn't get married in the Church, but later on starts practicing their faith again and wants to have their marriage recognized. This usually happens when there's significant evidence that the marriage is valid, like a long common life, raising children together, neither was married to anyone before, etc. Some judicial vicars are really happy to dole out radical sanations. Others are more stingy. My judicial vicar loves them. 

You can't call your local tribunal and get your siblings' marriages "fixed" because they don't concern you directly, but you can encourage your siblings to talk to their local priest to look into a radical sanation. You can hope and pray that they pursue it. In the meantime treat them with love and kindness and mercy. 

[Kevin]

3 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Yes I'm sorry I thought that when she became Calvinist she would have publicly defected from the Church, but that requires her writing her Bishop.

My sister is in a similar boat, but she seems to have no wish to be married in any way, and least your sister has some bond. Mine made her choices she continues to live by them, all I can do is pray for her. My getting angry with the Church or leaving the Church will not make the Church wrong or anything any better than it is now.  It would just hurt me and make me something of a contradiction. I want her to accept the Faith so I must also. I'm sorry if we have not been able to calm you or give you the answer you wanted.

I only wish that a letter from the Bishop would be enough, but that was revoked after 2009.

The issue that I have is that while my sister may have become a Calvinist and that may make her a heretic, I can't accept that she is guilty of any sexual impurity because of a technicality.

[CatherineM]

Good Freaking Grief!

This is the carp that causes people to flee from Phatmass. 

Kevin, love your brother, sister and their spouses. My parents weren't married in the Church. Only one of my 5 brothers had a church wedding. It ended in divorce. I could pull out all my canon law training and bounce them against the walls of the confessional and tell them they have to adhere to the strict reading of every canon in order for me to have anything to do with them. It wouldn't change a single thing about any of their marriages. It would just make me look like the arrogant know-it-all little sister I was as a teenager. 

There are lots of things in Church law that you can't understand by a dry reading of isolated canons. There are issues of conscience. While we are required to properly form our consciences, some people's conscience will never allow them to follow rules to the letter. They are allowed to follow their conscience. 

The other thing to remember is that marriage is the only sacrament that isn't preformed by a priest. It is conferred by the couple on each other the priest or deacon is simply the Church's witness. When a couple who has been married for years enters the Church, they are not re-married in the Church. Their marriage is simply blessed by the Church. If they were to divorce later and seek an annulment, the Church wouldn't look to the validity of the marriage at the time of blessing, but rather would look back to the validity of the marriage from their original wedding.

Whether your brother or sister's marriage is valid now, might be in the future, or whatever, is ultimately Not up to you or a bunch of strangers on the Internet. Marriage is hard enough without it leading to family stress. There is a reason Pope Francis has call for a year of Mercy. Somewhere along the way, we've forgotten about the importance of mercy. 

If your ultimate goal is for them to get their marriages blessed in the Church, which tact do you thing will work best, praying for them and showing them the openess and Love of the Church, or cutting them out of your life?  Ultimately whether their marriages are sacramental or not is up to God. I personally think I'd find it more scandalous for a brother to cut off family members because he didn't approve of their marriages than for him letting them sleep under his roof in the same bedroom. 

[Kevin]

5 minutes ago, Basilisa Marie said:

You can't call your local tribunal and get your siblings' marriages "fixed" because they don't concern you directly, but you can encourage your siblings to talk to their local priest to look into a radical sanation. You can hope and pray that they pursue it. In the meantime treat them with love and kindness and mercy. 

If I had any impression that they were considering converting, I might tell them to do so. But I doubt they would care what the Church thinks of their marriage since they are, after all not even Catholic. Even if they were willing to get such a thing for my sake, I doubt the Church would give it to people who don't recognize the Church at all.

5 minutes ago, CatherineM said:

If your ultimate goal is for them to get their marriages blessed in the Church, which tact do you thing will work best, praying for them and showing them the openess and Love of the Church, or cutting them out of your life?  Ultimately whether their marriages are sacramental or not is up to God. I personally think I'd find it more scandalous for a brother to cut off family members because he didn't approve of their marriages than for him letting them sleep under his roof in the same bedroom. 

I don't know if you read the post in depth, but I am in agreement with you on most things. My concern is, how can I go on being Catholic if I am required to believe this? With other things, there are outs like invincible ignorance being the exception to the rule that there is no salvation outside the Church, but with this, it doesn't see like there's an out at all.

[little2add]

God bless you and your sisters Union

 There declaration of marriage and commitment to each other is  not a bad thing , in my opinion

keep the faith

Edited November 25, 2015 by little2add

[BG45]

Here's my two cents:  two people who have had formal canon law training have replied to this
And sadly a few of those people to also leave the Catholic Church.thread so far.  Both of whom seem to be the ones advocating mercy more than condemnation.  Ask a Tribunal.  Not trying to be mean, really I'm not, it's just that any possibly contentious issue is going to bring out the worst in PM posting, and not result in a lot of advice, as much as people sniping one another's positions and insinuating others aren't good enough.

What's happening with everything and the whole "is the marriage valid or not" stuff is heart-rending to read.  It, and the responses thus far, remind me of a thread on Reddit recently where a priest was going to not marry a woman and her future husband (and told them 2 weeks before the wedding), and some of the replies centered on the concept of, "Well the Church said 'no', a civil marriage would be invalid.  Go find someone else to love."  In the end, a few days later, an update said the priest had realized his mistake, and would be marrying them.  Mercy and forgiveness are things we often so look past without a second thought.

Quote

 

This is the carp that causes people to flee from Phatmass. 

 

 And sadly a few of those people to also leave the Catholic Church.

 

 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

WWPFD--The first thing Pope Francis (and I think Jesus) would do is to give Kevin a big hug and comfort him for all the hurt he is going through. Yes, Kevin's posts sound angry, but in a lot of people (men especially, since society often condemns men for expressing emotions like hurt) sound angry when in fact they are hurting badly. Kevin obviously loves his sister very much, but just as obviously (to me, at least) loves the Catholic church. The fact that Kevin is even willing to bring up the possibility of leaving the Catholic church shows me how much he is hurting and how desperate he feels.

What happened to mercy? Why isn't the FIRST sentence in EVERY post in this thread an honest expression of sadness at the problems Kevin is grappling with. Speaking only for myself (and not for Phatmass), I don't think Jesus intended to establish a church that got so caught up in legal tangles and language that things like love, a heartfelt lifelong commitment to one partner, and support for the family, got lost in the legalities. I don't believe that that is the Catholic church's intention, but it happens.

Kevin--I am obviously not the one to help you with all of the issues of the Catholic church's definition of marriage. I am here to say that I see you hurting and that makes me very sad, and I will pray for you and your family.

One problem with the fact that the Catholic church has been around so long (usually a very good thing) is that there are now thousands of teachings and rules, and when new rules are made, it's virtually impossible for anyone to know ahead of time the impact that the change in one rule could have on all the othher rules, leading to unfair, or at minimum, unintended, consequences. 

Thank the Lord that Phatmass has CatherineM. Kevin, you may not know much about CatherineM, but she is not only one of the most knowledgeable people on Phatmass, but also arguably the member with the most real-life experience of people caught in legalistic mazes, and also the person who has shown the most mercy, love, and actual real-life help to others in need, despite facing very serious health issues of her own. CatherineM--Thanks for posting. You are able to say what I am not qualified to say. 

Kevin--We're glad you posted, and we really do care about the awful situation you are going through, even if we often forget to say it out loud in our zeal to provide an answer. 

 

Edited November 25, 2015 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

Kevin, there is too much anger, too much pride. Life is always hard, but the only true guide is Christ and the Church He set over us. Please pray, and cling to our holy and infallible doctrines.
The grace to be conformed to God's Will is attainable, but only if we use the only grace truly guaranteed to us: the grace to pray.

[Anomaly]

24 minutes ago, Kevin said:

If I had any impression that they were considering converting, I might tell them to do so. But I doubt they would care what the Church thinks of their marriage since they are, after all not even Catholic. Even if they were willing to get such a thing for my sake, I doubt the Church would give it to people who don't recognize the Church at all.

I don't know if you read the post in depth, but I am in agreement with you on most things. My concern is, how can I go on being Catholic if I am required to believe this? With other things, there are outs like invincible ignorance being the exception to the rule that there is no salvation outside the Church, but with this, it doesn't see like there's an out at all.

Kevin, 

As an ex-Catholic, I would caution you against leaving the Church for the reasons you stated.  Emotionally charged reasons are no basis to join or leave a Belief System.

You're relying on your personal understanding and posts from internet persons that cannot have but a superficial understanding of the situation.  I'd also say that yours and your sister's understanding of the full Church teaching may be deep in some aspects, it's shallow in the broader understanding and application.  You're "Feenying" as a mirror to the perception of others (and the Church) being harshly narrowminded. 

Re-read Basilsa's and Catherine's posts.  They're excellent.  The Church doesn't and won't back off the desired Ideal Marriage, but there is lots of wiggle room for a good Catholic to behave lovingly towards people in a non-ideal situation.  People are not perfect. Allow some slack for your sister, as well others who may be coming off too harshly.   Visit and discuss this with a real priest in real life when there is time to discuss all the complex aspects. 

[Kevin]

7 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Kevin, there is too much anger, too much pride. Life is always hard, but the only true guide is Christ and the Church He set over us. Please pray, and cling to our holy and infallible doctrines.
The grace to be conformed to God's Will is attainable, but only if we use the only grace truly guaranteed to us: the grace to pray.

On what do you base the assertion that the only guide is the Church? Particularly when the Church seems to say different things at different times.

And as I pointed out, apparently God's will changed on this issue since Canon 1117 was changed in 2009. It's exactly this sort of dismissive "Just listen to what the Church says and don't ask questions" that I can't stand.

Oh, and according to Aquinas and Augustine and a bunch of other theologians, Grace isn't even something you can "attain", God simply arbitrarily doles it out to whoever he wishes for reasons nobody can say anything about. So whether or not I have the grace to pray is entirely up to God's arbitrary (or, excuse me "inscrutable", as if there was a difference) will to give me grace or not.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Kevin

[Nihil Obstat]

15 minutes ago, Kevin said:

On what do you base the assertion that the only guide is the Church? Particularly when the Church seems to say different things at different times.

And as I pointed out, apparently God's will changed on this issue since Canon 1117 was changed in 2009. It's exactly this sort of dismissive "Just listen to what the Church says and don't ask questions" that I can't stand.

Oh, and according to Aquinas and Augustine and a bunch of other theologians, Grace isn't even something you can "attain", God simply arbitrarily doles it out to whoever he wishes for reasons nobody can say anything about. So whether or not I have the grace to pray is entirely up to God's arbitrary (or, excuse me "inscrutable", as if there was a difference) will to give me grace or not.

I was quite careful in not saying that we can attain grace. I said that grace is attainable, i.e. can be attained. It comes from God. Not arbitrarily; according to perfect justice.
The Church has been set up on earth in order to guide us, to follow God's will for us. That is all there is, and it is all we need. Trust in God, trust in the Church, and surrender yourself to Him.

[CatherineM]

My Father always said it was a shame that Jesus had to leave his perfect Church in the hands of imperfect humans. The Church is like a large noisy family at Thanksgiving. It's loud and messy, some people don't get along with others, but in the end, we're all there together. You don't leave a family just because you can't get along with Uncle Fred. Leaving the Church wouldn't change the Church, but it would change you. 

[KnightofChrist]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

I only wish that a letter from the Bishop would be enough, but that was revoked after 2009.

The issue that I have is that while my sister may have become a Calvinist and that may make her a heretic, I can't accept that she is guilty of any sexual impurity because of a technicality.

I still believe what JPII said applies in this situation, her bond may not be recognized by the Church but by being in this bond she cannot be likened to those who sell their bodies for sex or have multiple partners with no commitment. Please talk to a good Priest or canon lawyer (if you are able to find one) about this; that would be so much better because you could have a real face to face conversion with some in person.

[tinytherese]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

On what do you base the assertion that the only guide is the Church? Particularly when the Church seems to say different things at different times.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but what the Church officially believes in regards to faith and morals doesn't change, but how it applies it can. Also, its understanding on issues can further develop like a child's body and mind transition into adulthood. 

The Church regards weddings between non-Catholics and non-Christians as valid because it wouldn't make sense for them to follow Catholic protocol since they are not Catholic. A Catholic however, is supposed to follow it. Unless they have formally renounced their Catholic faith, then the Church regards them as still part of the Church. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

Kevin, I would advise you to stay away from catholic forum, and to ask your questions to someone in real life  , someone who have a formation, who will listen to you, answer your questions, and help you. 

Read again the post of CatherineM, who is full of truth. 

But please, don't take a decision so serious as leaving the Church, because of the internet. 

God bless you and your sister. 

[Kevin]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I was quite careful in not saying that we can attain grace. I said that grace is attainable, i.e. can be attained. It comes from God. Not arbitrarily; according to perfect justice.
The Church has been set up on earth in order to guide us, to follow God's will for us. That is all there is, and it is all we need. Trust in God, trust in the Church, and surrender yourself to Him.

No, it isn't according to justice, because that would imply "merit" had anything to do with it. The  However, I'm a Molinist on the issue anyway, but it doesn't surprise me that someone whose only argument is "Obey the Church because you have to" falls back on on the Augustinian position. In fact, it was only Augustine who embraced predestination in the way he did, so I shouldn't have even associated such a view with that of the Church.

However, the main point: I refuse to follow the Church just because it says it is the Church. If the Church teaches something that makes no sense to me and I embrace it, that would be Fidesim anyway.

27 minutes ago, tinytherese said:

The Church regards weddings between non-Catholics and non-Christians as valid because it wouldn't make sense for them to follow Catholic protocol since they are not Catholic. A Catholic however, is supposed to follow it. Unless they have formally renounced their Catholic faith, then the Church regards them as still part of the Church. 

This last part is not the case, hence the problem. Even if you renounce Catholicism, you are apparently still bound to marry in the Catholic form or you are guilty not only of heresy, but fornication. Oh, unless you got married between 1983 and 2009 and filed a formal defection. That made it okay, apparently.

45 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I still believe what JPII said applies in this situation, her bond may not be recognized by the Church but by being in this bond she cannot be likened to those who sell their bodies for sex or have multiple partners with no commitment. Please talk to a good Priest or canon lawyer (if you are able to find one) about this; that would be so much better because you could have a real face to face conversion with some in person.

I sent an email to a Canon lawyer. In the end, I will probably not leave the Church anyway, but neither will I acknowledge that my sister is not really married. So I may just excommunicate myself latae sententiae whether I like it or not.

1 hour ago, CatherineM said:

My Father always said it was a shame that Jesus had to leave his perfect Church in the hands of imperfect humans. The Church is like a large noisy family at Thanksgiving. It's loud and messy, some people don't get along with others, but in the end, we're all there together. You don't leave a family just because you can't get along with Uncle Fred. Leaving the Church wouldn't change the Church, but it would change you. 

A church is not like a family in one sense: a man who disbelieves one article of the faith, disbelieves them all. It's true that leaving the Church would not change the Church, but just as you've pointed out, the issue is not with the Church, but with me: if the Church requires me to believe something I cannot accept, I will be outside the Church regardless of whether I stop going to Mass or calling myself a Catholic.

[Nihil Obstat]

As I said before, there is too much anger and too much pride. Take care and keep watch. I have nothing left to say.

[KnightofChrist]

13 minutes ago, Kevin said:

I sent an email to a Canon lawyer. In the end, I will probably not leave the Church anyway, but neither will I acknowledge that my sister is not really married. So I may just excommunicate myself latae sententiae whether I like it or not.

It would probably be better to get a confessor, talk to a priest over time not just this one issue. It appears perhaps other issues trouble you as well, perhaps not. But talking in person will likely be better than over the internet since you or whomever response can come off as cold when that is not the case.