Pearl Harbor

[vee]

They shouldve just dropped the first nuke on Hirohito.

Not that much of Tokyo was left after the firebombing but still...

 

Then again I guess they needed him to call teh surrender. 

Oh well who cares its only Japan.

10 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

 

There were many barbaric things that were committed by all countries during World War II (some obviously more than others,) so let's not call the Japanese insane barbarians when we committed our own atrocities.

they were!  They will even say they were nucking futs ie they thought they could control all of Asia AND take on the US, oh and treat everyone like croutons including their own people in the mean time.  They were insane, they were barbaric. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by vee
gaijin

[vee]

8 hours ago, Anomaly said:

  I'm sure Japan thought the greater good for Japanese would be served, more so than a desire to cause the deaths of millions of its citizens.  

They were nuts, they didnt care.  Everyone was ready to die.  Life was irrelevant.

[Ice_nine]

I'm not really a fan of calling other people/nations barbarians without seriously considering the sins of my own people, or my own nation. I probably feel the need to over compensate because people tend to blindly support "their side" whatever that may be. You defend the tribe you belong to I guess. And since we (notice how easy it is to say "we" and take credit for something you had nothing to do with) kicked so much @$$ in Japan and in Europe, we get to write the story. We get to rationalize our violence as necessary and brand their violence at barbarism. How do I know where the objective truth lies? Oh, you're American and you think American war tactics are justified? SHOCKING.

It's just boring. I want to love my country AND take seriously its flaws but I feel the need to turn into a critic when people gloss over how the destruction we caused is somehow morally superior to the destruction "they" caused. This usually devolves into insinuations that I'm a spoiled brat or something. Same dance. Over and over.

I guess it doesn't matter until someone you know is bleeding out of their eyeballs because some military technician found their death an acceptable sacrifice or even an acceptable expedient for some noble goal. Someone somewhere will shrug their shoulders and tell you it was the better option.

[Guest]

https://youtu.be/wLexUhHp4LM

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, vee said:

 

Oh well who cares its only Japan.

 

That is an appalling thing to say.

[dominicansoul]

My dad's generation were not barbarians.  They were heroes.  They didn't want this war but they beaver dam well finished it.  

 

 

and vee is japanadien, btw.  her head is stuffed with natto.  Lmao. 

[Maximilianus]

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

My dad's generation were not barbarians.  They were heroes.  They didn't want this war but they beaver dam well finished it.  

 

 

and vee is japanadien, btw.  her head is stuffed with natto.  Lmao. 

She substitutes cheese curds with natto in her poutine

[NadaTeTurbe]

And we're still waiting for Japan to apologize for all the horrible things that they did in China, such as the Nanking Massacre (300 000 chinese killed). Japanese nationalist are trying to re-write history about it. In 2013, Osaka's mayor, Toru Hashimoto, said that the sexual exploitation of Chinese women (for wich Japan have NOT apologize) was "necessary". The Japanese governement is very nationalist and far-right, and Japan is divided between nationalist (a noisy minority) and normal people. 

[dominicansoul]

Yes, Vee was telling me the japanese have a place......yasakuni shrine....where people still go to worship the WWII military dead.  Crazy.

[vee]

Yasukuni memorializes all war dead from about 1868 until 1951 I think.  Over two million people but the problem is there are just over 1 000 class A war criminals among those numbers.  Guys that were jsut as bad if not worse than the most famous Nazis you can think of. 

[dominicansoul]

http://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/world-war-ii-history/videos/attack-pearl-harbor

At 7:55 a.m. Hawaii time (12:55 p.m. EST) on December 7, 1941, Japanese fighter planes attacked the U.S. base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, launching one of the deadliest attacks in American history. The assault, which lasted less than two hours, claimed the lives of more than 2,400 people, wounded 1,000 more and damaged or destroyed nearly 20 American ships and more than 300 airplanes. Almost half of the casualties at Pearl Harbor occurred on the naval battleship USS Arizona, which was hit four times by Japanese bombers. As we commemorate the anniversary of this “date which will live in infamy,” as President Franklin D. Roosevelt described it on December 8, 1941, explore five little-known facts about USS Arizona and the attack that plunged America into war.

1. Twenty-three sets of brothers died aboard USS Arizona.
There were 37 confirmed pairs or trios of brothers assigned to USS Arizona on December 7, 1941. Of these 77 men, 62 were killed, and 23 sets of brothers died. Only one full set of brothers, Kenneth and Russell Warriner, survived the attack; Kenneth was away at flight school in San Diego on that day and Russell was badly wounded but recovered. Both members of the ship’s only father-and-son pair, Thomas Augusta Free and his son William Thomas Free, were killed in action.

Though family members often served on the same ship before World War II, U.S. officials attempted to discourage the practice after Pearl Harbor. However, no official regulations were established, and by the end of the war hundreds of brothers had fought—and died¬—together. The five Sullivan brothers of Waterloo, Iowa, for instance, jointly enlisted after learning that a friend, Bill Ball, had died aboard USS Arizona; Their only condition upon enlistment was that they be assigned to the same ship. In November 1942, all five siblings were killed in action when their light cruiser, USS Juneau, was sunk during the Battle of Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands.

2. USS Arizona’s entire band was lost in the attack.
Almost half of the casualties at Pearl Harbor occurred on the naval battleship USS Arizona, which was hit four times by Japanese bombers and eventually sank. Among the 1,177 crewmen killed were all 21 members of the Arizona’s band, known as U.S. Navy Band Unit (NBU) 22. Most of its members were up on deck preparing to play music for the daily flag raising ceremony when the attack began. They instantly moved to man their battle positions beneath the ship’s gun turret. At no other time in American history has an entire military band died in action.

The night before the attack, NBU 22 had attended the latest round of the annual “Battle of Music” competition between military bands from U.S. ships based at Pearl Harbor. Contrary to some reports, NBU 22 did not perform, having already qualified for the finals set to be held on December 20, 1941. Following the assault, the unit was unanimously declared the winner of that year’s contest, and the award was permanently renamed the USS Arizona Band Trophy.

3. Fuel continues to leak from USS Arizona’s wreckage.
On December 6, 1941, Arizona took on a full load of fuel—nearly 1.5 million gallons—in preparation for its scheduled trip to the mainland later that month. The next day, much of it fed the explosion and subsequent fires that destroyed the ship following its attack by Japanese bombers. However, despite the raging fire and ravages of time, some 500,000 gallons are still slowly seeping out of the ship’s submerged wreckage: Nearly 70 years after its demise, Arizona continues to spill up to 9 quarts of oil into the harbor each day. In the mid-1990s, environmental concerns led the National Park Service to commission a series of site studies to determine the long-term effects of the oil leakage.

Some scientists have warned of a possible “catastrophic” eruption of oil from the wreckage, which they believe would cause extensive damage to the Hawaiian shoreline and disrupt U.S. naval functions in the area. The NPS and other governmental agencies continue to monitor the deterioration of the wreck site but are reluctant to perform extensive repairs or modifications due to the Arizona’s role as a “war grave.” In fact, the oil that often coats the surface of the water surrounding the ship has added an emotional gravity for many who visit the memorial and is sometimes referred to as the “tears of the Arizona,” or “black tears.”

4. Some former crewmembers have chosen USS Arizona as their final resting place.
The bonds between the crewmembers of Arizona have lasted far beyond the ship’s loss on December 7, 1941. Since 1982, the U.S. Navy has allowed survivors of USS Arizona to be interred in the ship’s wreckage upon their deaths. Following a full military funeral at the Arizona memorial, the cremated remains are placed in an urn and then deposited by divers beneath one of the Arizona’s gun turrets. To date, more than 30 Arizona crewmen who survived Pearl Harbor have chosen the ship as their final resting place. Crewmembers who served on the ship prior to the attack may have their ashes scattered above the wreck site, and those who served on other vessels stationed at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, may have their ashes scattered above their former ships. As of November 2011, only 18 of the 355 crewmen who survived the bombing of USS Arizona are known to be alive.

5. A memorial was built at the USS Arizona site, thanks in part to Elvis Presley.
After Arizona sank, its superstructure and main armament were salvaged and reused to support the war effort, leaving its hull, two gun turrets and the remains of more than 1,000 crewmen submerged in less than 40 feet of water. In 1949 the Pacific War Memorial Commission was established to create a permanent tribute to those who had lost their lives in the attack on Pearl Harbor, but it wasn’t until 1958 that President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed legislation to create a national memorial. The funds to build it came from both the public sector and private donors, including one unlikely source. In March 1961, entertainer Elvis Presley, who had recently finished a two-year stint in the U.S. Army, performed a benefit concert at Pearl Harbor’s Block Arena that raised over $50,000—more than 10 percent of the USS Arizona Memorial’s final cost. The monument was officially dedicated on May 30, 1962, and attracts more than 1 million visitors each year.

 

[Ice_nine]

9 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

And we're still waiting for Japan to apologize for all the horrible things that they did in China, such as the Nanking Massacre (300 000 chinese killed). Japanese nationalist are trying to re-write history about it. In 2013, Osaka's mayor, Toru Hashimoto, said that the sexual exploitation of Chinese women (for wich Japan have NOT apologize) was "necessary". The Japanese governement is very nationalist and far-right, and Japan is divided between nationalist (a noisy minority) and normal people. 

No one is saying Japanese people didn't do some horrible, horrible things. I think people just want to make it known that Allied forces also did some horrible, horrible things.

[NadaTeTurbe]

I'm sorry, but I'm more worried about what is going on in Japan right now - rise of nationalism, denial of the war crimes, relationship with China, than worried with the fact that american people honor the people who liberated my country.  Allied forces raped many women in Normandy. Some of them - not a lot, we agree - were punished for it. I've never heard of a big movement in the USA who said "we never raped anyone in Normandy". Not only did Japan not apologized or punished the criminals for their crime, but there is a BIG movement who deny it.We are not supposed to look only in the past but in the present. What is going on in Japan right now is more urgent. 15 of the 18 members of the actual japanese governement are part of a lobby who deny Japanese war crimes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Kaigi). 

http://nation.time.com/2012/12/11/why-japan-is-still-not-sorry-enough/ 

Edited December 9, 2015 by NadaTeTurbe

[dominicansoul]

My father was there, Nada, when the Allies liberated France.    He always wanted to return, but never could.  He's 90 now but he remembers France very well...

[Ice_nine]

2 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

I I've never heard of a big movement in the USA who said "we never raped anyone in Normandy".

well there is not a big movement to deny it because there's not a big movement to expose it either. Sexual assault in the US military is very hush hush. Not nearly on the top of the list of topics that usually come up when we're talking about WWII.

At the end of the day I still think it unwise to gloss over the sins your people committed in the name of freedom. I'm sure Japanese people have their own justifications. Again, do you have any level of certainty that our nations are objectively morally superior, and are you sure this certainty has nothing to do with the fact that you and the people you love are Westerners?

[NadaTeTurbe]

Or I don’t understand you, or you are implying that the nations who FIGHTED FACISM AND NAZISM were not right.

The nazis invaded my country, they destroyed it, and then they deported my family. So you know what ? Yes, I believe that the Allied were 10000000000 superior to Hitler and Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan. Sorry, not sorry. 

 

So YES. DURING WORLD WAR II, EVERY NATION WHO FIGHTED THE FACIST WAS SUPERIOR TO THE FACIST NATIONS. Sorry. The United Kingdom was superior to France. Ethiopia was superior to Italy, and no matter how much Chang Kaï Tchek was a bad one, China, a country who fighted for his freedom, was superior to Japan. And I’m speaking as someone who come from a facist country – France was super happy to collaborate with Germany.It doesn't mean everything was right - Hiroshima was not necessary and horrible. 

« I’m sure japanese people have their justifications ». Well, they are wrong. The japanese had NO rights to invade Manchuria. Read about the 1937-1945 war. Find me a moral justification for the invasion of Manchuria. I'm waiting. Italian had justifications to invade Ethiopia. And you know what ? We don't care. They had no right. Period. 

There’s a lot of subjet I’m open to debate. But « who were the good one and who were the bad one during second world war » is not one of them. Go and speak about it with other facist. I have enough people in real life who explained to me how much the americans were the bad one during the war and the germans/italian/japanese were the good one.

(and the people I love are not all westerners. Why do you say that ? Do you know my life ? My best friend is Chinese - not a westerner, and she will never defend japanese imperialism during 2WW.)

Edited December 10, 2015 by NadaTeTurbe

[dominicansoul]

Nada, there's a good blocking mechanism here on phatmass, just to let you know.  If phatmassers annoy you to no end with nonsense, you can put it into place.  I know I definitely will.

 

If we go about looking at history with a microscope on "who's the good guy bad guy" you will always find something wrong with everybody.  There's no ideal population on this earth.  There's a beautiful hope found in America that you won't find in countries where liberty and freedom don't exist.  In WWII, there were *gasp* BAD horribly BARBARIC GUYS.  And *gasp* AMERICA WAS CONSIDERED THE GOOD GUYS.  THE JEWS WERE LIBERATED BY AMERICANS AT CONCENTRATION CAMPS.  DO YOU THINK THEY LOOKED AT THEM AND SAID, "Well, you're no better than the Nazis and Japs."  

CatherineM was right, This generation is afraid of words and "offensive" feelings and being politically correct.  The enemies will come and just throw these trigger words at them and they will bend over with their backsides in the air and let the enemy at them. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

Oh no, I don't want to block anyone, I can disagree with someone and then agree with him on another subject. 

In high school, some people liked to think they were rebels by criticizing the Allied. It began with "you know, the Allied, in Normandy, they did some thing..." and it ended with "Hitler was not that bad, you have to look at the whole picture." I'm french and spanish republican - I don't buy into this narrative. I don't accept relativism when it comes to this subject. We are not living in a society who allow this. The nazis, the facist, the nationalist - they are still here. 

I wish your father was here during the ceremony commemorating the D-Day last year. It was beautiful, very touching. 

WHile I think a part of our generation is "weak", I think there's a lot of young people we don't hear  today. Don't listen only to young adults living in their little college bubble. There's lot of young people who are not in the university and are working since they are 16. I used to volunteer in one of the poorest part of my city, and I met with this boy - he was 18, a carpenter, working 40+ hours a week for his family because his mother was sick, dad out of the picture, and he had 5 little brothers and sisters to feed. He did not think about trigger warning - he only cared about his family. There's lot of young people like him - hard-worker, honest - people. You don't hear about them because they're not attractive enough for journalist. It's a shame. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Being better than the worst people in the world is not difficult. We should shoot for a bit more than that.

[Peace]

On 12/9/2015, 4:42:08, NadaTeTurbe said:

And we're still waiting for Japan to apologize for all the horrible things that they did in China, such as the Nanking Massacre (300 000 chinese killed). Japanese nationalist are trying to re-write history about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan