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Anomaly

Did Mary have Free Will?

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Anomaly

Starting this topic off to delineate an issue that was raised about Mary being capable of sin. 

Avoiding semantics in the other thread, the basic question is if Mary had/has the same free will as Adam and Eve and Angels?

Adam and the Angels weren't created with the stain of Original Sin. Okay, Mary could be born in the same condition.  However, the question is how could Mary have free will as did Adam, but also be incapable of sinning?  

Ultimately, why couldn't/didn't God create all His creatures with the same Nature and Free Will and avoided all the issues of the Fall, sin, etc.?

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KnightofChrist

Free will does not depend upon choosing sin. Mary was given blessings, graces and gifts that Adam and Eve were not given. She was the Ark of the Covenant she would be protected from being defiled just as the Ark of the Old Covenant was kept from being defiled.

 

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Anomaly

I did not say that Mary sinned or that you have to sin if you have free will. 

Lets break it down to yes or no questions. 

Did Mary have complete free will as Adam, Angels (preFall), and Eve?  

Y or N

Was Mary FULLY human? Y or N

Was Mary solely and uniquely incapable of committing a sin(disobeying God) yet human and with free will?  

Y or N  

 

Edited by Anomaly

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Spem in alium

My understanding is that Mary, as a human person, had complete free will. She had the ability to make choices (right or wrong, good or bad), and she did have the ability to say "no" at the Annunciation. If she had been some kind of automaton, would she be revered in the same way or be able to be considered a role model for us? Would we even view her as a Mother? To approach someone so intimately as we do Mary, they need to be relatable for us. Mary is in the fact that she possessed the capacity to choose, and she made the best choices. :) She still had this ability even though she had been preserved from original sin. 
 

11 hours ago, Anomaly said:

Ultimately, why couldn't/didn't God create all His creatures with the same Nature and Free Will and avoided all the issues of the Fall, sin, etc.?

Because humans are created in God's "image and likeness", as a reflection of who God is. And what is God? God is love, and we are created in love and to love -- which requires choice. If we were simply "programmed" to follow God without any thought or compulsion on our part, if it was something we did without choice, it wouldn't be true love or devotion. 

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Cam42
10 hours ago, Anomaly said:

I did not say that Mary sinned or that you have to sin if you have free will. 

Lets break it down to yes or no questions. 

Did Mary have complete free will as Adam, Angels (preFall), and Eve?  

Y or N

Was Mary FULLY human? Y or N

Was Mary solely and uniquely incapable of committing a sin(disobeying God) yet human and with free will?  

Y or N  

 

Did Mary have complete free will as Adam, Angels (preFall), and Eve?  --  Not the same thing.  What makes Mary special is that she still had the need for salvation, just like all mankind.  But her salvation took place at her conception, not her death.  The miracle of the Immaculate Conception is that God excluded her from original sin.  It simply wasn't present.  Her salvation was immediate, but she still had to lead her life.  It is just that her life was sinless, because of an indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Adam and Eve on the other hand did not have original sin, they committed the original sin.  Their salvation was tied immediately to the Incarnation, but in a wholly unique way, because they weren't born into original sin.

4 hours ago, Spem in alium said:

My understanding is that Mary, as a human person, had complete free will. She had the ability to make choices (right or wrong, good or bad), and she did have the ability to say "no" at the Annunciation. If she had been some kind of automaton, would she be revered in the same way or be able to be considered a role model for us? Would we even view her as a Mother? To approach someone so intimately as we do Mary, they need to be relatable for us. Mary is in the fact that she possessed the capacity to choose, and she made the best choices. :) She still had this ability even though she had been preserved from original sin. 
 

Because humans are created in God's "image and likeness", as a reflection of who God is. And what is God? God is love, and we are created in love and to love -- which requires choice. If we were simply "programmed" to follow God without any thought or compulsion on our part, if it was something we did without choice, it wouldn't be true love or devotion. 

Not exactly.  And this is my whole point.  Mary did have the choice to say no, but it wasn't at the Annunciation.  It was at her conception.  Mary wasn't some sort of super human who didn't happen to sin, by some happy coincidence.  She didn't sin because at the moment of her conception, she gave her fiat.  It wasn't vocalized  until the Annunciation, but that was simply an affirmation or a confirmation of what was already taking place.

Also, to say that God is love is to limit Him.  We can't say that.  We can say that an attribute of of God is love.  But in the most proper sense, the best we can do to say what God is, is to simply say that God is who is.  That is how He, Himself made the revelation to Moses.  God said, "I AM WHO AM."  As humans, we can't really comprehend it, so we label God.  We label Him as love, or some virtue....no...love is a creation of God's, just as all other things are.

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Anomaly

So much for being able to answer Yes/No and working from there.  No wonder the other thread is over 35 pages with no answer.

If someone asks if a car has gas in the tank, it isn't helpful to respond with the explanation that "gas" is an idiom for distilling a carbon rich petroleum liquid, called petrol on the UK.  

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Cam42
14 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

So much for being able to answer Yes/No and working from there.  No wonder the other thread is over 35 pages with no answer.

If someone asks if a car has gas in the tank, it isn't helpful to respond with the explanation that "gas" is an idiom for distilling a carbon rich petroleum liquid, called petrol on the UK.  

It's not a yes/no question.  However, if you must have a yes or a no....then yes, Mary had free will.  It was perfected at the moment of her conception.

Edited by Cam42

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KnightofChrist
11 hours ago, Anomaly said:

I did not say that Mary sinned or that you have to sin if you have free will. 

Didn't you say it in the other thread though? I just wanted to get that out of the way in my first post in this thread to avoid it later.

Quote

Lets break it down to yes or no questions. 

Did Mary have complete free will as Adam, Angels (preFall), and Eve?  

Y or N

Mary has complete free will but as the Angels have post-fall.

Quote

Was Mary FULLY human? Y or N

Yes

Quote

Was Mary solely and uniquely incapable of committing a sin(disobeying God) yet human and with free will?  

Y or N  

Mary has free will and was the only human being who was not also God who was impeccable/incapable of sinning (Christ's was metaphysical impeccability; Mary's was moral impeccability.)

Not all yes or no answers. But the questions couldn't be answered in yes or no in the form in which they were asked.

15 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

So much for being able to answer Yes/No and working from there.  No wonder the other thread is over 35 pages with no answer.

If someone asks if a car has gas in the tank, it isn't helpful to respond with the explanation that "gas" is an idiom for distilling a carbon rich petroleum liquid, called petrol on the UK.  

Tisk tisk, I didn't see your post until now.

Edited by KnightofChrist

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Anomaly

KoC, 

Thanks.  Im not being intentionally argumentative. I'm trying to be methodical as I understand things before I get to my ultimate question (which may be resolved beforehand).

So Mary has a human nature, as did Adam.  Slightly different circumstances of environment, not being in Eden.  M and A have free will, but different in ability to sin.  Am I correct so far?  (Concise answer, please).;)

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KnightofChrist

A: Mary and Adam had free will, Mary had and has an inability to sin and did not sin, Adam had the ability and sin and did sin. Mary was given a grace Adam was not.

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Anomaly
4 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

A: Mary and Adam had free will, Mary had and has an inability to sin and did not sin, Adam had the ability and sin and did sin. Mary was given a grace Adam was not.

So the only difference was additional or special grace was given to Mary that preserved her free will, human nature, but also modified her nature so she could NOT sin?

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Cam42
2 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

A: Mary and Adam had free will, Mary had and has an inability to sin and did not sin, Adam had the ability and sin and did sin. Mary was given a grace Adam was not.

Mary's inability to sin was due to the fact that she assented her will completely at the moment of her conception.  That is the special grace.  Mary did share in man's need for redemption, but her redemption was complete at the moment of her conception.  Another way of saying what I just said.  Like all human persons, Adam wasn't expected to sin.  That isn't why he was created.  He was expected to know and love God, so that he could be happy with God in his life.  The fact that he sinned is because he gave into temptation.  Mary did not, because of the sanctifying grace given to her at the moment of her conception.

1 minute ago, Anomaly said:

So the only difference was additional or special grace was given to Mary that preserved her free will, human nature, but also modified her nature so she could NOT sin?

No, it didn't modify it.  That is the wrong term.  Her will was perfected at the moment of her creation.  Think of it this way....Mary faced her particular judgment at her conception; while other humans face it at their death.  Remember all things are possible with God.  It was miraculous.  Mary still led her life and she affirmed her Immaculate Conception with her fiat at the Annunciation.  Mary couldn't sin, because she lived her life in a state of perfection.  To sin is to be less than perfect.

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Papist

Mary was conceived without sin.  For what purpose?  Mary was conceived without sin in preparation for carrying Christ within her. Therefore, Mary's whole being (body and soul) would need to be pure.  Was Mary was capable of sin?  Either way, she didn't sin.  Someone correct me if I am off here, but I believe this is what the Church teaches.

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Cam42
11 minutes ago, Papist said:

Mary was conceived without sin.  For what purpose?  Mary was conceived without sin in preparation for carrying Christ within her. Therefore, Mary's whole being (body and soul) would need to be pure.  Was Mary was capable of sin?  Either way, she didn't sin.  Someone correct me if I am off here, but I believe this is what the Church teaches.

Correct.  But your answer to the question doesn't answer the question, completely.  Mary didn't sin, because of her impeccability, as KofC is asserting.  All I am doing is supporting the notion of impeccability.  But the short answer is yes, you're correct.

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Papist
15 minutes ago, Cam42 said:

Correct.  But your answer to the question doesn't answer the question, completely.  Mary didn't sin, because of her impeccability, as KofC is asserting.  All I am doing is supporting the notion of impeccability.  But the short answer is yes, you're correct.

My post was not a response to yours.

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