Supporting a Carmelite's vocation (GoFundMe)

[Feankie]

If I had the power to close the thread, I would.  Again, I'm putting my SD hat on here - - all the "stats" don't add up, at least for me.  My queasiness increases......SIGH

If indeed there is a woman, and she does have debt, and she feels she has a vocation at her age, God bless her. The Lord will make a way for her as we are not the First National Bank of Vocation Station! :}   At 55 years of age she must have many friends, a local church community, family, etc. that would be more than happy to help her deal with her debt.  I will pray for her.  BTW according to the IRL that particular Carmel's age limit is 39.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Francis Clare

[vee]

 

11 minutes ago, Francis Clare said:

 BTW according to the IRL that particular Carmel's age limit is 39.

Last time I read the gofundme page it seems she is being considered as an extern.  I dont know a whole lot about externs but my impression is that communities can be more flexible with age for that, and may even prefer someone who is a bit older for it. 

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, Francis Clare said:

   BTW according to the IRL that particular Carmel's age limit is 39.

They also say they take belated vocations - and I'm positive I've seen elsewhere that they actually mean it; as well as what Vee says about externs usually having slightly different requirements.  

[beatitude]

I can understand people being reluctant to give money to someone they don't know personally. But there is a difference between that reluctance and the cynicism and the judgmental insinuations we have here. It's been implied that this woman is somehow selfish and lazy not to pay off her own debt, when for all we know she's working day and night to do it. It's been implied that she's somehow flighty because she has had several different jobs, when there are multiple reasons why someone might work in different fields. It seems strange to me that the same people who are reluctant to donate to this woman based on lack of knowledge of her circumstances are quite happy to toss out judgments in spite of that lack of knowledge. If you don't know enough to donate, you probably don't know enough to judge either.

It is very easy to verify if a discerner is who she says she is - you contact the monastery for confirmation. Because of that ease of verification, pretending to be a candidate for the religious life must be one of the worst ways of getting money under false pretences that there is. Is there a guarantee that the discerner will stay after they enter? No. But that's true even for people whom we know well. If you think that this woman's employment history and debt make her look like an unlikely candidate, she's a lot less unlikely than the apostle Matthew, or so many of the others Christ has called; and we should never hand over our expectations with our charity anyway. We aren't 'buying' a share in a sister when we help out a candidate for religious life. We're just smoothing her path, and where that path will lead, God knows. So why speculate over a stranger in this way? If you feel drawn to help out financially, help her; if you don't, then don't. It's simple enough.

I will not be giving to this fundraiser because I've already chosen the recipients for my Christmas donations and I don't have any more money. I also think that the people I've chosen are in greater need than this woman, so I would have been unlikely to prioritise her even if I'd known about her sooner. We do have to be prudent in how we give and we can't empty our pockets every time someone asks. But there are other forms of charity than just giving money. It costs us very little, for example, to believe the best of people. Patrick might be a fraudster, but we don't have evidence for that, so why assume that this is a money-grab? Why can't he be who he says he is, a non-Catholic friend who is very excited about a friend's vocation and who is keen to do something to show his support? Charity literally means love, and it's possible to be miserly and mean-spirited in our thinking as well as in how we spend money. If VS were inundated with requests for money, I'd understand the frustration, but we aren't.

It's nearly Christmas. Let's keep it kind.

[Feankie]

Ok, that did it.  I'm out of here.  It seems we have a bit of passive-aggressivness going on.  I wish you all well.  It appears to me that some opinions are valued more than others and the "others" are dismissed or slapped on their hands.  Bye.

[PatrickGann]

4 hours ago, beatitude said:

It is very easy to verify if a discerner is who she says she is - you contact the monastery for confirmation. Because of that ease of verification, pretending to be a candidate for the religious life must be one of the worst ways of getting money under false pretences that there is.

beatitude, thank you.

Please do call the Erie monastery and ask if they have a candidate for postulancy named Mariette, who is working down her debt as her final "hurdle" before she can enter. They will tell you yes. Please, however, do not make it known that you know she's been accepted as an Extern Sister. We *intentionally* kept those words off of the GoFundMe page because there are people at the monastery, other Sisters, who don't know that this position (new to that particular monastery) is happening, and the Prioress didn't want them to know until Mariette entered as a Postulant. I don't know *why* this is the case -- I seriously do not understand the logic. But yes, as some of you have put two&two together, that is how and why she was able to become a candidate for Postulancy despite her age. That, and her career as a social worker / therapist (and the battery of psychological tests they throw at any candidate) all suggested she'd be perfect for the role.

I will finally say -- while I did include the link and say "if you feel led, give," my PRIMARY purpose (and I believe I put it in order of greatest need) was to find out what resources existed so that I could help. Some of you told me about KoC and Catholic Daughters (which Mariette has already reached out to). Others mentioned Mater Ecclesiae and Laboure Society, which she is now working at applying to thanks to your advice.

I did and do not mean to "start a trend" where Vocation Station becomes the place where people beg for money. If that's the precedent I've set ... well, stepping back and looking at it, that would be upsetting. And I did not mean to disturb the Phatmass community & phorums as such. I am seriously just trying to help a friend, and I do believe with all my heart that God has been calling her to this, and time will prove it out. Maybe the fault is mine for being impatient, or maybe having an open space to donate to this individual was inspired. Time will tell.

In any case, it'd be pretty bold of me to attempt fraud given I've made my identity known from the first moment. You can find me on Facebook or Twitter, easily. I am attending a school for an MSW, and I used to write a ton of reviews for videogames and music, because I'm something of a technophile. I'm not hiding in the shadows, so if I suddenly went from foodstamps to sweet new car, you'd know I stole donors' money. It's not who I am. So you can verify me with a little googling, and you can verify Mariette and her status as an Aspirant by calling Erie's Carmelite monastery on the phone.

*exhales*

So we're all good now, right?

Patrick

[Benedictus]

PatrickGann -  I'll keep your friend, Mariette, in my prayers. I hope people, even if they don't donate, can give you help regarding resources and so on. There have been a few people on here who've had to pay off debts and they might have tips and advice that is constructive.

The diocese, such as a director of vocations, might be able to tell you about trusts, charitable funds or private sources that will help those entering orders etc. Sometimes private and corporate donors will help someone. The debts themselves would resurface if they decided to leave, which seems fair. I didn't really have debts before I entered, so I was lucky. 

It's too bad some people wanted to turn your thread into a debate about money funding and your intentions (and your friends situation), it's not nice reading. I think you've justified yourself enough, so I'd ignore any negativity and rashness posted on here.

The life experience and work experience of your friend would be an asset to a community, and I think the superior would clearly see that. I hope it works out for your friend and I hope she finds Gods ultimate grace and peace in Carmel.

[miserere55]

This is an interesting post, Patrick...one that gives me (and other belated vocations) hope!  I am in Mariette's age group--but single, with no dependents or debt--and actually contacted the Erie Carmelites about their revised age limits, etc.  I was told that they would only accept younger vocations in the summer of 2015.  Mariette's acceptance was in October!  I'm left wondering what happened.  Does anyone (Patrick, perhaps) have any insight?

[Pia Jesu]

On 12/23/2015, 11:49:53, truthfinder said:

They also say they take belated vocations - and I'm positive I've seen elsewhere that they actually mean it; as well as what Vee says about externs usually having slightly different requirements.  

Sigh...the Erie Carmelites' website used to say that "God calls when He wills" (with regards to age limits).  After inquiring myself, I was told that belated vocations are no longer being accepted.  Lots of confusion here.

[truthfinder]

23 minutes ago, Pia Jesu said:

Sigh...the Erie Carmelites' website used to say that "God calls when He wills" (with regards to age limits).  After inquiring myself, I was told that belated vocations are no longer being accepted.  Lots of confusion here.

That's really too bad. 

[PatrickGann]

I'm not privy to all that happens out in Erie ... neither is Mariette, for that matter.

But I do know that there was a transition in leadership, and there has been much discussion about the value of age restrictions. It's a complicated balance. As far as I can understand it, the ideal would be to bring in more young Aspirants ... for obvious reasons, the ones we've all heard and know.

Simultaneously, the number of young Aspirants is relatively low in certain parts of the country, and it's basically nil (as far as I know) in Erie and among Carmelites (life of contemplative prayer, etc).

I had heard rumors and concerns that the Carmelite monastery and Erie was 'on its last legs,' so to speak. Their total population was low. I don't know the exact number, and how many were postulants vs novitiates vs first / final vows, but I am quite sure it was under ten (max population is 21, I think?). They may have been as low as five at one point. So, if accepting older Aspirants could help grow the population, perhaps it's the way to go?

This is also purely human logic. I don't know what is revealed through the many hours of prayer the nuns do, as well as the Bishop of the diocese. I know they all care deeply about the monastery.

Were I in your shoes, miserere, I'd simply inquire again. It's tough for them, too, because I've heard that there's a sort of "pass 'em along" thing where if you talk to one monastery and they say "sorry you're too old," the next thing they say is "have you checked out Erie?" So if Erie gets that reputation ... one they probably don't want ... it's complicated, right? But that shouldn't stop you from asking again. I know Mariette asked them many times over the span of a couple years before they took her seriously. I am reminded of the parable of the persistent widow (though an analogy would not hold long, as the Catholic church as the 'judge' is not an uncaring pagan ... it's just that persistence can be powerful).

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think its very kind that you are helping your friends vocation. I think as a forum maybe we could be more trusting I know there can be frauds out there but it just doesn't seem so to me in this case. Also it can be really hard to pay off debt. I have student debt still and I haven't been able to pay any because I just don't make enough. But I'm living on my own and working. It doesn't mean the person just refuses to work or something. Also i think if I helped someone to pay their debt and they entered religious life and then discerned out, I don't think that's like they "let me down". Its just a person seeking God's Will and trying religious life takes courage and openness. Anyway.. I'm sorry I don't have any money to contribute but I'll pray for your friend God bless you! 

[miserere55]

Thank you, Patrick.  I appreciate the advice--and will take it into consideration.

[Totally Franciscan]

Age discrimination in religious communities is my pet peeve.  Check out Fr. David Mary's essay on Age Discrimination at franciscanbrothersminor.com.  Click on Discernment at the top, and scroll down to the essay at the bottom.  He is the voice of reason.  Yes, there are communities that are bursting at the seams with young members, and older folks need not apply.  Perhaps if those communities that are dying off due to lack of youthful  vocations would be more flexible as regards age they would flourish once again.  Age is such an arbitrary thing.  Hopefully this aspirant at the Erie monastery will be the start of recognizing that those who are beyond age 35 have a lot to offer God and their community.

[RoseOfGuadalupe]

On December 21, 2015 at 4:28:01 PM, PatrickGann said:

I don't think so. The only JMJ Carmel in PA is in Elysburg, right? That's center state, Erie is northwest. Blessings to your friend, however!

Yes, she is. She entered yesterday.  

[PatrickGann]

3 hours ago, RoseOfGuadalupe said:

Yes, she is. She entered yesterday.  

Rose,

Wow, that's so exciting! Again, many blessings to your friend?

A personal question for you... do you know how long you'll have to wait before you're allowed to visit your friend? I'm asking primarily so I have some educated guess as to how long I'll have to wait to visit Mariette when she enters @ Erie.

[RoseOfGuadalupe]

On January 7, 2016 at 5:44:35 PM, PatrickGann said:

Rose,

Wow, that's so exciting! Again, many blessings to your friend?

A personal question for you... do you know how long you'll have to wait before you're allowed to visit your friend? I'm asking primarily so I have some educated guess as to how long I'll have to wait to visit Mariette when she enters @ Erie.

I can see her in June at her clothing. I think that may be the only time I can see her until her final vows.