Matthew 24:34

[Guest]

Merry Christmas. Just found out about this verse today. (On Christmas of all days) Can't believe I hadn't heard of this earlier. Troubling stuff. I come to Phatmass to learn about the faith and also talk about doubts and troubles I face with faith and believing. Catholicism/Christianity makes bold claims and threats of an eternity in hell so I don't ever feel bad about bringing up concerns and doubts I'm faced with especially when they're based on the Bible. I'm glad I dig in deep enough to find this stuff and just don't believe without any questioning. If you don't question things to the core I don't know how sincere your faith can honestly be. At the same time I think it's important to have a simple childlike faith. I honestly believe Jesus was real. That he existed. As of today i still believe He's God. I definitely will always believe in a Creator/Higher Power/God (even if I depart from Catholicism/Christianity in the future) but I can't just ignore blatant problems when they present themselves. I find it kind of depressing this stuff is sorta hidden from believers and not talked about. In 2015 with the internet and militant atheist I think Catholic/Christian apologist have to do a better job addressing these issues. I think quite possibly the strategy should be bringing it up before the believer accidently finds out about it. It seems the approach/strategy has been let's hope believers don't dig in deep enough and find out about this stuff that can really shake a person's faith to the core in Catholicism/Christianity. I've spent the last two hours reading about Matthew 24:34 and the consensus I get from believers is yeah this one is tough. There's not an overwhelming convincing answer to deal with this. C.S. Lewis said it was the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Joining Alcoholics Anonymous  was one of the most spiritual experiences I ever had. More then one thing happened through that experience that makes me believe in a Higher Power. I've had things happen in life that can't be explained by a purely naturalistic universe where we are all just a random coincidence with no spiritual aspect to reality and life. A lot of the people in there believed in a higher power but not necessarily the Christian God. I feel I've built a real relationship with Christ and can feel His presence in my life. Along with Mary. I just started praying the Rosary in the last year and I think it's powerful. At the same time it often feels like Catholicism/Christianity is just one of the ways the Creator/Higher Power draws people to Himself. And the Bible seems to have some really tough stumbling blocks when one really digs in. Thanks for letting me share. Merry Christmas and God bless.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Guest

[Nihil Obstat]

I see no major issues with that verse, once we accept the Church's authority to interpret Scripture.

[Credo in Deum]

 

I'm still trying to figure out why this verse has caused this reaction from you, Josh.  

Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 34. This generation; i.e. the nation of the Jews shall not cease to exist, until all these things shall be accomplished: thus we see the nation of the Jews still continue, and will certainly continue to the end of the world. (Tirinus) --- Then the cross, which has been a scandal to the Jew, and a stumbling-block to the Gentile, shall appear in the heavens, for the consolation of the good Christian. Hoc signum crucis erit in cœlo, cum Dominus ad judicandum venerit. --- If it be to be understood of the destruction of Jerusalem, the sense may be, this race of men now living; if of the last day of judgment, this generation of the faithful, saith Theophylactus,[4] shall be continued: i.e. the Church of Christ, to the end of the world. (Witham) --- This race, I tell you in very truth, shall not pass away till all this be finally accomplished in the ruin of Jerusalem, the most express figure of the destruction and end of the world. (Bible de Vence) --- By generation, our Saviour does not mean the people that were in existence at that time, but the faithful of his Church; thus says the psalmist: this is the generation of them that seek the Lord.(Psalm xxiii, ver. 6.) (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxvii.)

[Seven77]

 Christmas blessings to you Josh. I think it's very simple to understand this verse:  I've always believed that this verse refers to  the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 A.D. The population in the time of Jesus were, generally speaking, present when the Temple was destroyed by the Romans.

 The Haydock commentary that Credo  posted  backs this up. Also, it adds that this verse serves as a reminder––the historical destructionthat Jesus prophesies is a reminder of the end of the world, and in this case, we should see  ourselves as “this generation.” 

 Be at peace about this verse… just a few minutes ago I was reading the Pope's homily from midnight Mass and he said something that really struck out to me:

”There is no room for doubt; let us leave that to the skeptics who, by looking to reason alone, never find the truth.  There is no room for the indifference which reigns in the hearts of those unable to love for fear of losing something. All sadness has been banished, for the Child Jesus brings true comfort to every heart. “

[Guest]

From the poster Roy at Catholic Answers on a topic about having doubts about the Bible :                                                                                                 I am a Christian who tries my best to follow Christ, Having said that, the Bible is full of contradictions, plenty of gory genocide and some myths.

A few examples.

Can we talk about the love of God and accept Noah's Ark - that God deliberately drowned everyone but one family? Hey, what about all those children - even children in the womb? And can we really believe that God ordered Joshua to murder the inhabitants of Jericho or commanded Saul to kill every remaining Amalekite? The same God that told us to love one another, even our enemies?

What about the verses calling us to kill witches, kill everyone who sacrifices to any God but Jehovah, kill homosexuals? What about the son who curses his father? I guess he has to be killed, too!

That wild tale found in II Kings 2:23-25 (as I recall) - Elisha, his bald head, children mocking, Elisha calls down the curse of the Lord, two bears come out from the woods and maul them! Give me a break!

In the New Testament what about the discrepancies in the family tree of Jesus - and why through Joseph, if not the father? 

Do we agree with Paul that slaves should obey their masters, that women should be silent in the church and cover their heads?

You get the idea.

To defend all this is to make Christianity appear contradictory and even a bit stupid.

It's important that Christians study the Bible realistically. It is full of inspiration. It contains much of God's truth. But this notion that the Bible is inerrant, free of mistakes - forget it.

And why does the Bible seem to rejoice when the people shout "Saul has killed his thousands but David has killed his ten thousands!"? And scripture tells us that Solomon was the wisest of men. Was that because he had 700 wives and 300 concubines? Great example of family values!

We could go on and on but I would leave the wrong impression. I love the Bible, but to make it infallible is silly. It is the product of men who were inspired by their faith but not perfect. Sorry. But God bless them for trying, even if with limited success.

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Guest

[HisChildForever]

15 hours ago, Seven77 said:

The Haydock commentary that Credo  posted  backs this up. Also, it adds that this verse serves as a reminder––the historical destructionthat Jesus prophesies is a reminder of the end of the world, and in this case, we should see  ourselves as “this generation.” 

This is what I always thought. Didn't the End Times start at the time of Christ? So "this generation" is anyone who lives from that era onward.

[Seven77]

On 12/26/2015, 6:56:20, Josh said:

From the poster Roy at Catholic Answers on a topic about having doubts about the Bible :                                                                                                 I am a Christian who tries my best to follow Christ, Having said that, the Bible is full of contradictions, plenty of gory genocide and some myths.

 

These things can be answered...  and there are very good answers out there--- all you have to do is use Google, being sure to fiddler out skeptical websites and visiting reliable ones, especially if they are Catholic. I'm pretty sure some of them have already been answered here on PM too. 

 Just to take one example, the incident about Elisha and the bears has a very good explanation here...  I looked it up earlier:

( his book sounds like its definitely worth checking out)

My understanding has always been that the bear incident was used as a cautionary tale-- don't mock God because there will be consequences. And, just because bears came out and mauled those "kids"  doesn't mean that God caused it to happen-- he merely allowed it to happen and it was attributed to him. Also, it can't be stressed enough, a lot of events  (historical and not so historical-- remember that the Old Testament is a collection of theological--thus inspired--books that span multiple genres) that occurred during Old Testament times took place for the sake of teaching “infants,"  and the New Testament  (historical) events  are intended to mature those infants, which means that personal moral responsibility is increased.

 St. Augustine once said that he wouldn't put stock in the Bible unless he was moved by the authority of the Catholic Church to do so. It's important to read it in the way it was intended to be read and interpreted and carried out.

(A long time ago, I was also seriously under the impression that the Bible is full of contradictions and cannot be trusted but thankfully God exposed me to reliable teachers like Scott Hahn, etc. And now thanks to God for people like Bishop Barron)

Edited December 28, 2015 by Seven77

[veritasluxmea]

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

 

 

My understanding has always been that the bear incident was used as a cautionary tale-- don't mock God because there will be consequences. And, just because bears came out and mauled those "kids"  doesn't mean that God caused it to happen-- he merely allowed it to happen and it was attributed to him.

I was told Elisha had the gift of prophesy- like Moses he could command nature to do some things- and he misused his gift to maul those boys. Since God had given Elisha the gift God didn't take it away (because He respected Elisha's free will to use his gift as he wanted), but God later rebuked Elisha for misusing his gift. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

The Douay Rheims with the Challoner notes says this about the chapter. I think probably the early Church Fathers probably wrote on it too.

 "Christ foretells the destruction of the temple, with the signs that shall come before it and before the last judgment. We must always watch.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

5 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

I was told Elisha had the gift of prophesy- like Moses he could command nature to do some things- and he misused his gift to maul those boys. Since God had given Elisha the gift God didn't take it away (because He respected Elisha's free will to use his gift as he wanted), but God later rebuked Elisha for misusing his gift. 

According to the Challoner commentary,

[24] Cursed them: This curse, which was followed by so visible a judgment of God, was not the effect of passion, or of a desire of revenging himself; but of zeal for religion, which was insulted by these boys, in the person of the prophet; and of a divine inspiration: God punishing in this manner the inhabitants of Bethel, (the chief seat of the calf worship,) who had trained up their children in a prejudice against the true religion and its ministers.

[veritasluxmea]

9 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

According to the Challoner commentary,

[24] Cursed them: This curse, which was followed by so visible a judgment of God, was not the effect of passion, or of a desire of revenging himself; but of zeal for religion, which was insulted by these boys, in the person of the prophet; and of a divine inspiration: God punishing in this manner the inhabitants of Bethel, (the chief seat of the calf worship,) who had trained up their children in a prejudice against the true religion and its ministers.

Interesting, but doesn't contradict what I posted. You can be filled with righteous zeal and make a mistake 

[Nihil Obstat]

12 minutes ago, veritasluxmea said:

Interesting, but doesn't contradict what I posted. You can be filled with righteous zeal and make a mistake 

The commentary specifically excludes "the effect of passion or a desire of revenge". That sounds like it clearly contradicts you, to me.

[MarysLittleFlower]

On 12/26/2015 6:56:20, Josh said:

From the poster Roy at Catholic Answers on a topic about having doubts about the Bible :                                                                                                 I am a Christian who tries my best to follow Christ, Having said that, the Bible is full of contradictions, plenty of gory genocide and some myths.

A few examples.

Can we talk about the love of God and accept Noah's Ark - that God deliberately drowned everyone but one family? Hey, what about all those children - even children in the womb? And can we really believe that God ordered Joshua to murder the inhabitants of Jericho or commanded Saul to kill every remaining Amalekite? The same God that told us to love one another, even our enemies?

What about the verses calling us to kill witches, kill everyone who sacrifices to any God but Jehovah, kill homosexuals? What about the son who curses his father? I guess he has to be killed, too!

That wild tale found in II Kings 2:23-25 (as I recall) - Elisha, his bald head, children mocking, Elisha calls down the curse of the Lord, two bears come out from the woods and maul them! Give me a break!

In the New Testament what about the discrepancies in the family tree of Jesus - and why through Joseph, if not the father? 

Do we agree with Paul that slaves should obey their masters, that women should be silent in the church and cover their heads?

You get the idea.

To defend all this is to make Christianity appear contradictory and even a bit stupid.

It's important that Christians study the Bible realistically. It is full of inspiration. It contains much of God's truth. But this notion that the Bible is inerrant, free of mistakes - forget it.

And why does the Bible seem to rejoice when the people shout "Saul has killed his thousands but David has killed his ten thousands!"? And scripture tells us that Solomon was the wisest of men. Was that because he had 700 wives and 300 concubines? Great example of family values!

We could go on and on but I would leave the wrong impression. I love the Bible, but to make it infallible is silly. It is the product of men who were inspired by their faith but not perfect. Sorry. But God bless them for trying, even if with limited success.

 

I'm sorry I don't understand why  this is posted here? It would maybe confuse those who may be struggling. Anyway I'll respond to this person:

We know the Bible is infallible. If parts don't make sense maybe we are not understanding them well. That's exactly why the Church is the interpreter of Scripture.

It is very arrogant for us to think we can judge God and His actions. If someone thinks it was "unfair" for everyone but Noah and his family to die, I don't know what to say. If we saw the reality of sin we would understand. Some Saints saw the reality of sin and would have died if God didn't support them. Maybe its we who don't get it, not God (who is omniscient), not the Church? Very obvious answer but often we don't mistrust ourselves, rather God and the Church. 

If we don't read the Bible or look at our lives with a trust in God's goodness, we would probably misunderstand something. That was the first temptation of Eve before she believed other lies - to doubt God.

We start with faith and THEN seek wisdom, because in some things our minds need to be illumined by faith and grace to understand. Particularly aspects of revelation are above us to understand without grace. This is the mistake of atheists - they try to understand everything first, but our minds aren't capable to understand ideas not in natural law without grace. It is simply not in our nature to understand Divine revelation like that, and even if we do, we need to look to the Church to give interpretation of Scripture as it is infallible. 

Plus there are many resources that give explanations of those parts of the Bible that's why its so good we have the Church, it does give us the interpretation and minds much wiser than mine have thought about them - and didn't lose their faith, but were guided by the Holy Spirit to understand correctly. 

Also something from St Philip Neri "Scripture is better learned through prayer than through study."

Edited December 29, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

Sure its good to study but we need to reply on God for the graces to understand! There are things I don't understand and through prayer God has given me more peace that its ok if I don't understand everything. He can do that or give understanding which He does too. We need to think about all this with peace and the poster you quoted sounds very agitated. 

[veritasluxmea]

2 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

The commentary specifically excludes "the effect of passion or a desire of revenge". That sounds like it clearly contradicts you, to me.

 I don't mean to imply Elisha did it out of anger or revenge, although the commentary isn't infallible teaching. I agree it's possible he thought he was doing the right thing. What his motives were doesn't matter as much as what he did 

[Nihil Obstat]

3 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

 I don't mean to imply Elisha did it out of anger or revenge, although the commentary isn't infallible teaching. I agree it's possible he thought he was doing the right thing. What his motives were doesn't matter as much as what he did 

Many Church teachings are not raised to the level of infallibility. The Challoner commentary in all likelihood rises to the level of ordinary Magisterium. And much of it corresponds with sacred Tradition. It is a solid commentary and worthy of deference.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[Guest]

22 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

I'm sorry I don't understand why  this is posted here? 

Why not? It relates to the subject. Catholic Answers is one of my favorite sites because of post like the one I quoted. They allow this stuff to be talked about IN DETAIL and don't censor everything. So if it was up to you MLF only stuff that supports your view could be posted? No thanks. For the record I think Phatmass does a great job at letting things get discussed. I just read a recent thread (2015) on Catholic Answers about Hitler and it had tons of pics with Him posing with Clergy and things of that nature. I'm glad the thread was allowed and it was very eye opening. The Catholics in the thread did a good job defending the Church and it was a roller coaster of emotions for me with each post in the debate to say the least. Although I don't think the thread or all the pictures should of been deleted because it makes people uncomfortable or might challenge someones faith. When you claim that your Religion is the ultimate truth and anyone who doesn't submit to it is going to hell for all of eternity then expect people (believers and unbelievers alike) to discuss things when they don't appear to make sense or there's what seems to be glaring contradictions. The answer isn't just ignore it and don't talk about it. The only person that benefits is the person who is 100 % convinced their belief is the truth. A lot of times this persons only response to objections is "oh well this is how it it is accept it or burn in hell forever for eternity." Overblown religious fundamentalism "I'm right there's no possibility I could be wrong you're going to hell if you don't accept I'm right" is a disease. Whoever it's coming from and whatever religion they're representing. An update on me through prayer and talking with God this particular issue is resolved for me. I still have the questions/doubts but more then that I have faith/trust and love for a Higher Power that I know is here with me. That Higher Power is Jesus and I feel His presence daily and I'm thankful for it. I'm glad He's a big enough God to let me express doubt and not disown me for it. I'm thankful He gave me a brain to think with and isn't angered when I use it.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

On 12/28/2015 2:39:25, Seven77 said:

These things can be answered...  and there are very good answers out there--- all you have to do is use Google, being sure to fiddler out skeptical websites and visiting reliable ones, especially if they are Catholic. I'm pretty sure some of them have already been answered here on PM too. 

 Just to take one example, the incident about Elisha and the bears has a very good explanation here...  I looked it up earlier:

( his book sounds like its definitely worth checking out)

My understanding has always been that the bear incident was used as a cautionary tale-- don't mock God because there will be consequences. And, just because bears came out and mauled those "kids"  doesn't mean that God caused it to happen-- he merely allowed it to happen and it was attributed to him. Also, it can't be stressed enough, a lot of events  (historical and not so historical-- remember that the Old Testament is a collection of theological--thus inspired--books that span multiple genres) that occurred during Old Testament times took place for the sake of teaching “infants,"  and the New Testament  (historical) events  are intended to mature those infants, which means that personal moral responsibility is increased.

 St. Augustine once said that he wouldn't put stock in the Bible unless he was moved by the authority of the Catholic Church to do so. It's important to read it in the way it was intended to be read and interpreted and carried out.

(A long time ago, I was also seriously under the impression that the Bible is full of contradictions and cannot be trusted but thankfully God exposed me to reliable teachers like Scott Hahn, etc. And now thanks to God for people like Bishop Barron)

Great post. Really enjoyed the video. Good stuff. The book is probably great. Also Bishop Barron is awe some. It's to bad the best Catholics of all time like Voris bash him constantly and say he's a heretic.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[KnightofChrist]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Why not? It relates to the subject. Catholic Answers is one of my favorite sites because of post like the one I quoted. They allow this stuff to be talked about IN DETAIL and don't censor everything. So if it was up to you MLF only stuff that supports your view could be posted? No thanks. For the record I think Phatmass does a great job at letting things get discussed.

I don't think MLF wanted to censor your post, but wondered what it had to do with Matthew 24:34. Also had she wanted it censored why on earth would she then precede to respond to it? 

But what is the subject, is it Matthew 24:34 as it seemed to be originally, to be or is the much more wide, vast, broader, expansive and shotgun effect topic of 'difficult teachings and moments recorded in the Bible?' It really is quite difficult to discuss the latter. Imagine, you're a history teacher and I'm your student and the subject is "conflicts and tense moments in world history." First I ask you about the Cuban Missile Crisis, as you're answering that I then jump to the assassination of Caesar, then the American Indian War, then Tiananmen Square, then the Ararat Rebellion and so on. Do you see how I may make you're brain go boom? Can you see how you've already jumped from Matthew 24:34, to the Flood, Witches, homosexuals, Elisha, discrepancies in the family tree of Jesus, Saint Paul, slavery, head covering, the stupidity of Christianity, the wars of King Saul and King David, the infidelity of King Solomon, infallibility of the Bible, Hitler and the Clergy, religious fundamentalism, Michael Voris and I'm sure there are topics I missed.  

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[MarysLittleFlower]

My issue with the post from CA was that it wasn't like a question that was phrased, but a very emotional response coming from a person who is clearly really struggling. If a lurker is reading people asking questions, that won't necessarily affect their faith because it's fine to ask questions and to seek understanding of the faith. But the emotional doubtful tone of the post could affect more sensitive readers and make then feel doubts even if intellectually they don't struggle with this topic. As Knight said it was also a very general topic and an illustration of someone's doubt vs specific questions. I understand why you posted it Josh - I just saw the persons post being a type of complaint almost - not specific questions, but almost like saying "see how impossible it is to believe this!". I wasn't sure if the poster is seeking to be convinced or to convince others! It was almost an argument. But maybe it just came from some pain and the person is seeking answers, and was just feeling emotional over it all. I'll assume that. Anyway it was more the tone that concerned me not asking questions, which I have no issue with

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

My issue with the post from CA was that it wasn't like a question that was phrased, but a very emotional response coming from a person who is clearly really struggling. 

I didn't take that from "Roy's" post at all. Granted I read the entire thread but even just reading that single post  I don't take agree with your conclusion. I don't see how it's emotional? He's just listing arguments (dare I say convincing arguments?) as to why he views things the way he does. Can you point out what you find emotional about it? I also don't see how you think he's "clearly really struggling" I just see a guy who says he doesn't think the Bible is perfect. Do I agree with him? At this very moment in time I will go with no. Because I can see how everything can come together to show the whole picture through Christ. 5 days ago I would say I do agree with Roy because he has good points and these points aren't far fetched. They're pretty obvious and easy to grasp. I fail to see how your assessment of his emotional reply/supposed struggle is accurate. I don't see it. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think he is struggling because he is having difficulty (for a reason unknown to me) to believe a doctrine of the Church about infallibility of Scripture.

The arguments aren't as convincing as they might seem with researching the Church interpretation in more detail..  For me personally I am not a scholar but I just try to trust God. Without trust a person can lose any understanding they had, I am saying this because it has happened to me and only God's grace keeps me here. I think the Church teaching is entirely reasonable but I don't trust my own mind completely because I've made many mistakes.

I don't know if he was upset while writing this or not, but it just sounded that way to me, maybe it wasn't like that for him though. 

I really believe in seeking understanding together with trust and virtue. Some things are above reason though they are not unreasonable. Other things we can understand through reason and natural law. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

For me personally I am not a scholar but I just try to trust God. Without trust a person can lose any understanding they had, 

Agreed

[KnightofChrist]

St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled!”²⁸¹¹ All these things. What things? I pray thee. Those about Jerusalem, those about the wars, about the famines, about the pestilences, about the earthquakes, about the false Christs, about the false prophets, about the sowing of the gospel everywhere, the seditions, the tumults, all the other things, which we said were to occur until His coming. How then, one may ask, did He say, “This generation?” Speaking not of the generation then living, but of that of the believers. For He is wont to distinguish a generation not by times only, 445 but also by the mode of religious service, and practice; as when He saith, “This is the generation of them that seek the Lord.”²⁸¹²

For what He said above, “All these must come to pass,”²⁸¹³and again, “the gospel shall be preached,”²⁸¹⁴this He declares here also, saying, All these things shall surely come to pass, and the generation of the faithful shall remain, cut off by none of the things that have been mentioned. For both Jerusalem shall perish, and the more part of the Jews shall be destroyed, but over this generation shall nothing prevail, not famine, not pestilence, not earthquake, nor the tumults of wars, not false Christs, not false prophets, not deceivers, not traitors, not those that cause to offend, not the false brethren, nor any other such like temptation whatever.