Honesty

[Anomaly]

18 hours ago, Amor vincit omnia said:

Anomaly,

 

To be totally honest with you, I agree with the Church about a lot of things. For me it just so happen that one day I fell in love and when I did it was with a woman. Unfortunately I couldn't help it, I have struggled with it for a lot of years. Would it be wonderful that I be accepted in the Catholic church of course it would. But will that ever happen probably not but. I believe in everything the Catholic Church stands for and I know that contradicts everything.

 

I didn't post this to be a huge debate or anything. This post was mainly for me. For me to finally let it out in a place that i spent a lot of time in. I didn't want to feel like I was lying to anyone or to myself. For the longest time the reason why I always left Phatmass was because reading some post on here made me feel that just because I was Gay I was not a good enough person, Catholic, Christian whatever you want me call me etc. But after praying and praying I am at a place where I finally feel liek am a good person and in my own way I try to nourish the relationship I have with Him.

Amor,

Although I may have trepidations about how you conceived your son, you are a parent now.  It's all about the child now.  You and your wife face extra challenges because of your non-ideal circumstances.  But all parents, (birth, adopted, foster, etc.) face tremendous challenges.  It's not easy to be the solid foundation of love that children need.  It takes life long commitment and tremendous sacrifice.  Even in ideal family situations.

I wish you and your family the best.  I wish that you'll find emotional, social, and spiritual support and encouragement from those around you.  Even from those who may not agree with your initial choices, I wish they could be constructive and supportive for the sake of your child's family (you and your wife) because it is about the child's life.

I know and love many bastard and or adopted people in my family.  It's a "weird" thing my very traditional Catholic extended family tends to do.  Blood is thicker than water, Family is thicker than blood.  Your son is not destined for unhappiness and misery.  He can have a loving family and it is your and your wife's responsibility.  Being a family is about love and sacrifice, not shared dna.  While the traditional M/F family may be "statistically more likely" to be the best environment to provide familial love and support, family love and support is what your son deserves and needs.  I hope your family and friends are loving and supportive to you and your wife, and through you, loving and supportive of your son.  I wish that you would find loving spiritual and emotional support here at Phatmass.  But if not, don't be reluctant to move on or let us drag you and your family down.

 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Anomaly

[MIKolbe]

Lee-

I'm happy you're back. I've missed you. 

I've double checked all my contractions, and they are correct.

Stay awhile, hermana....

[Seven77]

I also hope that you stay AVO. Peace to you. You have my prayers.

[Ice_nine]

Life is hard. I hope you find your way back.

[franciscanheart]

On May 28, 2016 at 0:30 AM, CatherineM said:

Having a child is a choice, even in "accidental" pregnancies. The exception are kids born from an act of rape. My parents loved us. They didn't love us enough to sacrifice to get their marriage fixed. My Dad loved me to the absolute infinity that he was capable of. Being human, he was broken, broken more than lots of people because of his life experiences. Therefore he wasn't capable of loving me enough to quit drinking as an example.

My Mom wasn't capable of loving me enough to be overtly affectionate. She could show her love doing things for us, but couldn't vocalize it.     Amor is also broken in her own way. That brokenness prevented her from truly understanding the importance of having a father for her child. I don't think it's a coincidence that she didn't have one herself. 

Saying someone didn't love their child enough to provide this or avoid that doesn't mean they don't in fact love their kids. I'm certainly not a perfect parent. I've made tons of mistakes, passed on some of the brokenness. Only God is a perfect parent. 

I suspect any continuation of this dialogue should be moved to another thread. I think your logic about parents not loving their children enough to do certain things is inherently flawed. If love was the solution to all the worlds problems, how easy t would be to solve them all. Sometimes there are things that exist outside of a parent's love for his or her offspring that affect decisions, behaviors, and circumstances. In my opinion, to deny that is to live in a sort of delusion. In some cases, that delusion may perpetuate a sense of victimhood. I don't claim to know the details of your life, and I certainly don't judge whatever cognitive leaps you have made to come to such a conclusion about your own parents. If that storyline (their lack of love for you) helps you to cope with the pain, hurt, anger, confusion, etc, great. We all live with stories from time to time that aren't quite in touch with reality in order to cope and move forward. I do not think, however, that it's fair to push those stories on to other people.

[beatitude]

6 hours ago, franciscanheart said:

I suspect any continuation of this dialogue should be moved to another thread. I think your logic about parents not loving their children enough to do certain things is inherently flawed. If love was the solution to all the worlds problems, how easy t would be to solve them all. Sometimes there are things that exist outside of a parent's love for his or her offspring that affect decisions, behaviors, and circumstances. In my opinion, to deny that is to live in a sort of delusion. In some cases, that delusion may perpetuate a sense of victimhood. I don't claim to know the details of your life, and I certainly don't judge whatever cognitive leaps you have made to come to such a conclusion about your own parents. If that storyline (their lack of love for you) helps you to cope with the pain, hurt, anger, confusion, etc, great. We all live with stories from time to time that aren't quite in touch with reality in order to cope and move forward. I do not think, however, that it's fair to push those stories on to other people.

I'm also not in agreement with everything Catherine writes (for example, love for a child will not always be enough to pull an alcoholic out of addiction, any more than it can cure leukaemia) but I disagree with this. God is love. That love is the solution to all the world's problems; he showed us that on Calvary, and in every other moment of Jesus' time on earth, and he continues to show us. But because of our own human frailties and brokenness, we are not always capable of communicating that to love to others, which means that these problems are far from easy to solve even though the remedy is so simple. And this is basically what sin is, all sin. A lack of love.

As I said before, very often we sin because we want something that in itself is a pure good. So someone who desperately wants to be a parent - itself a beautiful and sacred thing - and who has all the personal qualities to be a parent might easily try to become one in the wrong ways, say through IVF, which results in the destruction of many unborn children so that the parents can have just one; or through sperm donation, which has become a massive industry and essentially makes a child something you can buy. God has given couples the ability to share in creation, and lots of Catholic theologians see the Trinity reflected in each family. The massive lucrative industry that has built up around sperm donation and surrogacy replaces that with a business transaction. As Catholics, we can understand why people who so badly want a child might resort to this. We know that they aren't looking at this whole disturbing industry and its commodification of children, but just thinking about what it will be to have their own child. It's possible to have a lot of sympathy and empathy for that, but we can't in conscience say that conceiving in this way was the most loving choice possible.

As Scripture points out, God's love is new every morning, and we all have new starts - having made less-than-ideal choices in the past doesn't mean that more loving ones can't be made in the future. We shouldn't judge each other for past choices but we also shouldn't let go of the hope of making better ones by deciding that we're loving enough as we are now. None of us is that.

[CatherineM]

My point was parents love their children to the extent they are able but can never love them as perfectly as God loves us. My parents loved me very much, but due to the inherent brokenness of the human condition that love wasn't enough to overcome certain things. I thought I was clear, but apparently not. 

[franciscanheart]

On 5/30/2016 at 6:39 AM, beatitude said:

I'm also not in agreement with everything Catherine writes (for example, love for a child will not always be enough to pull an alcoholic out of addiction, any more than it can cure leukaemia) but I disagree with this. God is love. That love is the solution to all the world's problems; he showed us that on Calvary, and in every other moment of Jesus' time on earth, and he continues to show us. But because of our own human frailties and brokenness, we are not always capable of communicating that to love to others, which means that these problems are far from easy to solve even though the remedy is so simple. And this is basically what sin is, all sin. A lack of love.

As I said before, very often we sin because we want something that in itself is a pure good. So someone who desperately wants to be a parent - itself a beautiful and sacred thing - and who has all the personal qualities to be a parent might easily try to become one in the wrong ways, say through IVF, which results in the destruction of many unborn children so that the parents can have just one; or through sperm donation, which has become a massive industry and essentially makes a child something you can buy. God has given couples the ability to share in creation, and lots of Catholic theologians see the Trinity reflected in each family. The massive lucrative industry that has built up around sperm donation and surrogacy replaces that with a business transaction. As Catholics, we can understand why people who so badly want a child might resort to this. We know that they aren't looking at this whole disturbing industry and its commodification of children, but just thinking about what it will be to have their own child. It's possible to have a lot of sympathy and empathy for that, but we can't in conscience say that conceiving in this way was the most loving choice possible.

As Scripture points out, God's love is new every morning, and we all have new starts - having made less-than-ideal choices in the past doesn't mean that more loving ones can't be made in the future. We shouldn't judge each other for past choices but we also shouldn't let go of the hope of making better ones by deciding that we're loving enough as we are now. None of us is that.

We are not in disagreement on this. I think it's really easy, though, for people to jump to "if you only loved me enough, you would not [insert whatever behavior / action / decision here]" or "if only you loved me enough, you would [insert whatever behavior / action / decision here]" instead of realizing that the human condition is just that: human. I think the reality of humanity could better be viewed from the point of "if only you knew how much God loved you..."

Even still, I do not think things like leukemia or alcoholism or homosexuality is going to be "cured" by the understanding of God's love for a person, or of our innermost desire to love Him in return. I also don't think it's fair to say that a mother has not loved her child enough to provide something for that child. Would you turn to a woman who was choosing to give their child up for adoption and say, "Shame on you for not loving your child enough to keep him/her"? Would you turn to that woman and say, "Shame on you for robbing your child of the chance to know and grow up with his/her biological parents"? Would you say, "God does not look favorably on you. You conceived this child knowing you would not be able to provide. I hope you see the light someday," the same way you would say these things to Lee -- without a relationship, without history and an established loving dialogue?

I don't understand people who do not see how their words -- especially relatively anonymous words on the internet -- turn people away from the love of Christ, and from the Church.

[Anomaly]

2 hours ago, franciscanheart said:

 

I don't understand people who do not see how their words -- especially relatively anonymous words on the internet -- turn people away from the love of Christ, and from the Church.

People say and do lots of unfortunate things with the best of intentions.  Whether sharing parental love, or spiritual love.  We're mostly regular people with average intelligence, education, and communication skills.   We all should try to give the benefit of a margin for error and forgiveness.  It's when we attempt to speak with absolute authority and expect obedience that things fall apart.    Love first, teach second.  As much as I would hate for my daughters to have a child out of wedlock, I must love them and their child first before I attempt to again teach why it's not the ideal. The child is not one iota less deserving of familial love from me because their parents weren't married. 

[dUSt]

4 hours ago, franciscanheart said:

I don't understand people who do not see how their words -- especially relatively anonymous words on the internet -- turn people away from the love of Christ, and from the Church.

What if these words that you just said turned people away? Deep thoughts.

[franciscanheart]

23 minutes ago, dUSt said:

What if these words that you just said turned people away? Deep thoughts.

I love and respect you, but you frustrate me sometimes. I know that you know what I was getting at, and why your argument is more deflection than a countering viewpoint.

[dUSt]

1 minute ago, franciscanheart said:

I love and respect you, but you frustrate me sometimes. I know that you know what I was getting at, and why your argument is more deflection than a countering viewpoint.

Winter is coming.

[franciscanheart]

5 minutes ago, dUSt said:

Winter is coming.

You're right: beer time. I'll be over sometime in the next few months. Please make sure my confirmand is also there; this will surely be educational.

[beatitude]

The comparison with adoption doesn't work. If people conceive a child when they aren't able to care for one, they can't undo their choice, they have a human life to protect. The best they can do is place the child in a family who really will be able to meet his or her needs. In that situation, adoption is the most loving choice. It is an attempt to remedy a painful situation. But can the same be said for the decision to go to a business and pay your money to get a baby through artificial fertilisation? They're two completely different things. One is fully in harmony with Catholic teaching on the dignity of human beings and the sanctity of life. The other?

Like I said, I understand why people would turn to sperm donation and IVF. I would also never say "shame on you" to anyone and I haven't said anything remotely resembling it anywhere in this thread, so I'm a little hurt by the way you've put words in my mouth. I think you have been judgmental there, to be honest.

Commitment to Catholic bioethics might well turn people away from the Church. It wouldn't be the first time an authentic Catholic teaching has done that. ("This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" And many left him...) But there is a difference between standing by what we believe and trying to shame people who don't follow it, and unfortunately the two do get falsely conflated - by people on both sides of the argument.

[CatherineM]

I was at a meeting in Dallas a gajillion years ago that then Cardinal Ratzinger spoke at. He talked about being a young professor and having a debate with an older professor. The older man said that we shouldn't tell people the truth because humans aren't capable of following the moral laws. Telling us the truth would be condemning us to Hell. Ratzinger didn't agree. We are capable of hearing the truth. We are capable of doing hard things. It's the hardness that makes it great. We all have greatness in ourselves so long as we don't sell ourselves short.