I Cant Believe I Didnt Think Of This!

[Quietfire]

I have a friend (we'll call him Joe)
During the course of our discussion a while back, he told me that his father had died when he was around 16 or 17. He has since stopped going to Church and has admitted that he is very angry with God for "taking his dad away" when he felt he needed him the most. He said he couldnt figure out why his dad had to die at such a young age and leave him (Joe) here alone to figure stuff out. He was very close to his father and, like I said, is now angry with God.

This was quite a few months back. We have spoken since, but not about this. I did tell him I wanted to help him, if I could, and he said that that would be great. He also said that no one has tried to help him understand the "why's" that he had, and continues to have. I asked him if he had spoken to a priest about this and he told me he did but it didnt help him. I didnt ask him to elaborate (mostly because as I have spent time here, I understand that not all priests address these issues properly-I am not beating up the priesthood- but it is true.) I asked him if he spoke to more than one priest, and he said no.

I really want to help him, since in many ways, he has not actually dealt with this properly. His anger has blinded him, and although it is normal to have anger after the death of someone we love, I feel that he is misdirecting his anger towards God and that is wrong and an unhealthy attitude.

Can anyone here give a bit of assistance?
Since he is Catholic, I would be so sad to see him walk away from God like this, never to return.

Peace.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Jun 20 2004, 08:37 AM'] I have a friend (we'll call him Joe)
During the course of our discussion a while back, he told me that his father had died when he was around 16 or 17. He has since stopped going to Church and has admitted that he is very angry with God for "taking his dad away" when he felt he needed him the most. He said he couldnt figure out why his dad had to die at such a young age and leave him (Joe) here alone to figure stuff out. He was very close to his father and, like I said, is now angry with God.

This was quite a few months back. We have spoken since, but not about this. I did tell him I wanted to help him, if I could, and he said that that would be great. He also said that no one has tried to help him understand the "why's" that he had, and continues to have. I asked him if he had spoken to a priest about this and he told me he did but it didnt help him. I didnt ask him to elaborate (mostly because as I have spent time here, I understand that not all priests address these issues properly-I am not beating up the priesthood- but it is true.) I asked him if he spoke to more than one priest, and he said no.

I really want to help him, since in many ways, he has not actually dealt with this properly. His anger has blinded him, and although it is normal to have anger after the death of someone we love, I feel that he is misdirecting his anger towards God and that is wrong and an unhealthy attitude.

Can anyone here give a bit of assistance?
Since he is Catholic, I would be so sad to see him walk away from God like this, never to return.

Peace. [/quote]
My parents recently got divorced, and it wasn't easy. However, it may be beneficial (depending on his level of theological understanding?) to help him comprehend the sovereignty of God and how He brings about good out of evil.

Romans 8:28-39

[u][b]More Than Conquerors [/b][/u]

[color=blue]28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[10] who[11] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[12] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[13] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [/color]

God works all things for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His sovereign purposes. Life and death belong to God - perhaps God took your friends father from him because that was the time most advantageous to his salvation? Perhaps to teach your friend the purging value of suffering, or to make him turn to God in faith and humility. Whatever the reason, God is not idle, and God allowed his fathers death for a reason. You also might want to show him this passage from Job:

Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

[quote name='Job 40:8-14']7 "Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,
12 look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you. [/quote]

Clearly, no one can speak against God!

To sum up, I'd say this (in fact, I was thinking about this this morning)

What is God's answer to the problem of Evil? How did God deal with death?

The answer is, of course, a broken, bloody, and humiliated Christ nailed to a cross. This is God's answer to the problem of evil. For Christ is risen from the dead, and 'where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Hades, is your sting?'

[p0lar_bear]

Quietfire,

It's actually normal for people to get angry when someone dies unexpectedly. They get angry at the person who died and at God. It's one of the normal stages of greiving, and, in a sense, it's OK.

A lot of times the problem isn't getting angry, it's staying angry. Sometimes people stay angry almost as a way of holding onto the person who died. Being happy or even at peace seems to be a betrayal of the loved one. The person needs to get passed that anger so that they can heal and move on (no forgetting the loved one, of course).

If your friend is looking for a reason his father died, he probably won't find it. The best he will be able to do is accept it.

That said...

The scandal of evil and human suffering can be very difficult to overcome in coming to Christ. Suffering entered the world through the sin of man; it is not the work of God. However, by uniting our suffering to that of Christ, human suffering can have meaning, it can be beneficial.

Perhaps you could suggest Peter Kreeft's "Making Sense Out of Suffering," which (I've heard) is a very good book for those who are greiving or otherwise suffering.

[cmotherofpirl]

God puts us here with a purpose to fulfill in life. Some people complete their purpose in five minutes and go home, some get 100 years to fulfill their mission.
We don't always know how long each mission lasts, or always who we are specifically here to help. We will not that until the general judgement at the end of time.

Blaming God because someone we love finished life before us, doesn't help God's work or our mission. We don't have the answers and never will. We have to trust that there is a reason to what happens in life, and the God who loves us is behind it all.

Your friend's father has fulfilled his mission. Who here on earth has the right to say he should not go to his eternal reward? Who here has the right to say delay eternal happiness because I can't let go? Not a spouse, not a parent, not a child. Of course we get mad at God, its natural part of grieving to be angry. But you have to let go.

We do not help ourselves by holding onto anger, we become its victim. We certainly do not help our loved one either. If they can see us, they certainly would be upset to see us live in pain forever, and blame the God who made them.

Ecclesiastes, chapter 3
1: For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:

2: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;

3: a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4: a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5: a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6: a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7: a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8: a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.


Might I suggest C S Lewis's book "A Grief Observed"

[Quietfire]

[quote]It's actually normal for people to get angry when someone dies unexpectedly. They get angry at the person who died and at God. It's one of the normal stages of greiving, and, in a sense, it's OK.[/quote]

Yes, I agree with that, but in reading my statement, one can see he is still holding on to this anger. That is what bothered me.

When my most favorite uncle died, I was thunderstruck.
I hadnt seen him in 7 years, and to see him slowly die of cancer was extremely painful for me (for us all). He had been referred to as the rock of the family.
Cancer is such an ugly way to die. The way it reduces the body.
I remember being so angry with God for taking him from me.(selfish)
But as time passed I realized that he had fulfilled his requirements (so to speak) here and was called home.
He left an impression on me like no other man. And since I thanked God for him being in my life, as setting a good example.
His cancer I saw differently then and now. Though it may have reduced him physically, which I now realize that in death all things material shall and must and will pass away, his spirit never reduced. It was and is there even after material death. As he materially reduced, his spirit increased.

My anger toward God turned instead toward my gratefullness toward God, allowing me to know such a wonderful person.

But I still miss him terribly.

But now in retrospect, I think I just answered my own question. Sometimes I scare myself.

What do you all think?

Peace.

[cmotherofpirl]

Thinking out loud does help

[Budge]

I will pray for Joe to come back to the Lord.

In my church my pastor deals directly with dealing with hard issues of death and life and how God is in total control. I think when people get angry at God, they havent been given grounding or meat of the Word in how God is in charge and everything that happens is his will. It is natural human emotion and there are parts of Gods Word that deal with this namely Job. Job at even one point says "Though he (God) may slay me I will keep my trust in Him." That is the faith we are supposed to have in God.

Young people arent taught these things. I know I wasnt. I had to learn this in my 30s. Many get led away from God because they *blame* God rather then having a BIblical foundation for the reason things go *wrong* in this world or how death is the result of sin.

[Quietfire]

BUDGE!!!!!

I am so glad youre back! I truly missed you! :cheer:
Someone stole our conversation on that last thread. Haha, just kidding Mods.

Thanks for the input.
Again, it was lucid and honest.

Much appreciated.

Peace.

[Norseman82]

After mass this morning, I went to the cemetary to put a flag on my father's grave. I lost him at a younger age than Joe lost his.

My cousin died 7 years ago at the age of 43. He left behind a wife and three daughters aged 12, 10, and 4.

There are a lot of things that can be said, but the #1 thing that I would communicate to Joe is that he needs to keep on going and survive. He can honor his father best by turning out the best man he can possibly be.

As for the "anger at God" part, I don't know if Joe's father died suddenly or after a long illness, or as a result of an accident, or as a victim of crime. In the case of a long illness, one often has the opportunity to accept the inevitable.

Was the father a practicing Catholic? If so, then Joe should redirect his efforts to keeping alive his faith so that he may be reunited with his father in heaven.

In addition, does he have any other male relatives, like an uncle or grandfather or older brother, that he is close to? I know that as an adult I grew closer to one of my dad's brothers.

[Donna]

One should beg the Holy Ghost (I'm thinking) for the right words to say; or that someone else say them, or somehow they get communicated to your friend.

The only thing that I can think of to say is, "your father couldn't help it that he died."

There may be several other steps to go through, before God-issue can be addressed.

[i]Requiescat in Pacem, Pater.[/i]