McM RSCJ Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Josh, please stop. I think you mean well, but I do not think your posts are in the spirit of the Gospel. Of course Allah is the same God of Jews and Christians. I hope you can find soon some good news in the teachings of Jesus Christ under the inspiration of some wise, pastoral, and learned Catholic teachers. God is Love. And Jesus pleads with us not to judge. Please listen to Pope Francis and welcome his words in your heart. "Mercy IS doctrine." And one who insists "this, not that" is not in communion with the Church. This website, tragically, welcomes a very narrow view of God and of so-called Church teaching.
Socrates Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 2 hours ago, McM RSCJ said: Josh, please stop. I think you mean well, but I do not think your posts are in the spirit of the Gospel. Of course Allah is the same God of Jews and Christians. Wrong. God cannot be divided against Himself.
Peace Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 43 minutes ago, Socrates said: Wrong. God cannot be divided against Himself. Sure, God cannot be divided against Himself. But why is that relevant? I do not see your point. I do not see how that disproves the assertion that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God.
Nihil Obstat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 4 hours ago, McM RSCJ said: This website, tragically, welcomes a very narrow view of God and of so-called Church teaching. What a rude thing to say.
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, McM RSCJ said: Josh, please stop. I think you mean well, but I do not think your posts are in the spirit of the Gospel. Of course Allah is the same God of Jews and Christians. Wow people are completely deceived. Just like the Bible said they would be. "Even the elect will be deceived if that were possible." 1 hour ago, Peace said: Sure, God cannot be divided against Himself. But why is that relevant? I do not see your point. I do not see how that disproves the assertion that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Allah is not the God of the Bible. I find it very troubling how many Catholics assert with confidence that he is. Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." This confuses me. If the Catechism is saying that they hold the faith similar to the way alcoholics hold the faith when they ask their higher power to help them at aa meetings then I can accept it. On the other hand if it's saying that Allah (the deity out of the Koran who denies Christ as the Son of God) is the Most High and the Father from the Bible I have big issues. Is the Catechism infallible? Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 4.157 . And because of their saying : We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary , Allah ' s messenger They slew him not nor crucified , but it appeared so unto them ; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof ; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain , 4.158 . But Allah took him up unto Himself . Allah was ever Mighty , wise . O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah,and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171, Yusif Ali) Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (5:575, Yusif Ali)
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) ◄2 Corinthians 4:4 ► SATAN, WHO IS THE GOD OF THIS WORLD, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, WHO IS THE EXACT LIKENESS OF GOD. Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest
Peace Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 hour ago, Josh said: 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." This confuses me. If the Catechism is saying that they hold the faith similar to the way alcoholics hold the faith when they ask their higher power to help them at aa meetings then I can accept it. On the other hand if it's saying that Allah (the deity out of the Koran who denies Christ as the Son of God) is the Most High and the Father from the Bible I have big issues. Is the Catechism infallible? The person known as Clark Kent and the person known as Superman are the same man. Let's say that Jane is in love with Clark Kent, and Sally is in love with Superman. Jane does not believe that Clark Kent is Superman, and Sally does not believe that Superman is Clark Kent. Are Jane and Sally in love with the same man?
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Just now, Peace said: The person known as Clark Kent and the person known as Superman are the same man. Let's say that Jane is in love with Clark Kent, and Sally is in love with Superman. Jane does not believe that Clark Kent is Superman, and Sally does not believe that Superman is Clark Kent. Are Jane and Sally in love with the same man? The problem is Allah in the Koran goes directly after Jesus and attacks who Christ claims to be. I included a few examples from the Koran in a previous post. So that alone is enough to conclude that Allah is not God the Father but is Satan the father of lies. Like I said I can see how Muslims hold to the faith if it's the same way my non Catholic brothers and sisters hold to the faith when they seek their Higher Power in aa. But I find it impossible to take the leap that the deity in the Koran named Allah is God the Father from the Bible. And if the Catechism is saying this is the case then it's a big problem for me and my Catholicism. Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Galatians 1:8 But if we or an angel from Heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the on we preached to you let them be accursed.
McM RSCJ Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 "For who has known the mind of God and who has been God's Counselor?" No one of us. You are correct that neither the Jewish Scriptures nor the Qu'ran reveal God as Trinitarian. That understanding of God is a distinctive Christian teaching and a mystery central to Christian Faith. But that does not mean Jews and Muslims worship false Gods or different or lesser or harmful gods. You say the belief that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God is deeply problematic for your Catholic faith. I wonder why? And I wonder from whom you learned this?
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Just now, McM RSCJ said: You say the belief that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God is deeply problematic for your Catholic faith. I wonder why? And I wonder from whom you learned this? Not what I said. Jews worship God the Father. Never said anything about them. I said that the deity presented in the Koran is not God the Father. I'm trying to understand the Catechism and what it's saying. If I understand it correctly it's saying Muslims worship the one true God. And I take that the same way as non Christian alcoholics in aa praying to their Higher Power. So if that's what the Catechism is saying then I'm in agreement and see no problem with it. If it's saying the deity in the Koran is God the Father then I have a problem with it. Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest
McM RSCJ Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 What do you mean, Josh, when you say Jews worship "God the Father"? I am not necessarily disagreeing, since I find many names for God in the Hebrew Scriptures. I am certainly aware of prophetic passages in which God calls Israel, my son, out of Egypt and calls Daughter Zion. It is understandable that in trying to capture the free, unending, and unconditional love of God, scriptural authors would draw on maternal and paternal self-giving. Many other passages refer to "The Lord God, etc. But the appellation "God the Father" in Judaic scriptures indicates to you proof that Christians and Jews worship the same God and the true God. I am genuinely asking why you think this? And from what supposedly Catholic teachers you learned this? i also wonder what you would think if, for Islam, one of the many names of Allah is "Father"?
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) The deity Jews worship is from the Old Testament scriptures correct? While scriptures in the Koran explicitly have their deity saying Jesus is just a messenger. How could this deity be the same God we worship when he is saying these things about Christ? If this is truly the same deity then that's pretty scary and we're all screwed. Literally. Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest
McM RSCJ Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Your way to God is through Jesus who teaches you to know God as Love, the forgiving Father. That is wonderful. Amazing Grace. But why does it so deeply alarm you to think that the One God, Creator and Source of all of us, of all that is, also calls his own through his Prophet Muhammad and the Qu'ran? i believe that God is greater than all of our hearts and all of our minds. I also think that any attempt to put God in a box or to claim to be certain of what God wants is a form of idolatry. I want to encourage you to sign up for a university-level course in Scripture, taught by a believing and highly trained (e.g. PhD in Scripture from a major university) Catholic Professor. The Catholic Church does not teach/require a "literalist" approach to the truths of the Sacred Scriptures.
Guest Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) So you're saying God the Father would deny Jesus Christ as his son to bring Muslims into the fold? This is what Catholics now believe and teach? Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest
Nihil Obstat Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 I believe McM is unwittingly denying Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus by saying that someone can be saved through Islam and Muhammad. It is absolutely false that one can be saved through a false religion, though it is possible to be saved in spite of it. No grace comes through Islam. None whatsoever. This is dogma.
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