Adam Shaw Says "Enough Is Enough, Pope Francis Should Resign"

[Nihil Obstat]

2 minutes ago, HisChildForever said:

Well I was assuming that we all know people who marry in the Church because that's what the parents want, or the couple themselves want the church as a "nice background" for the photographs. I would not be surprised if these marriages are null.

The Church presumes the exact opposite. 

[HisChildForever]

Just now, Nihil Obstat said:

The Church presumes the exact opposite. 

The Church presumes that all couples marrying in the Catholic Church are 100% faithful, devout, and practicing? Even if the couple getting married are currently cohabitation?

[Nihil Obstat]

38 minutes ago, HisChildForever said:

The Church presumes that all couples marrying in the Catholic Church are 100% faithful, devout, and practicing? Even if the couple getting married are currently cohabitation?

100% is not the benchmark. Free exchange of consent is. The Church presumes that all marriages are valid unless and until proven otherwise.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Nihil Obstat

[Maggyie]

53 minutes ago, HisChildForever said:

Well I was assuming that we all know people who marry in the Church because that's what the parents want, or the couple themselves want the church as a "nice background" for the photographs. I would not be surprised if these marriages are null.

True. Sadly there's quite a few of the "in it for the pretty photos" variety. But "most," that's the part that bothers me. 

[Credo in Deum]

54 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

100% is not the benchmark. Free exchange of consent is. The Church presumes that all marriages are valid unless and until proven otherwise.

Innocent until proven guilty comes to mind.

[Gabriela]

These marriage threads are making me thinks even the relatively well-catechized Catholics don't understand the first thing about marriage. Considering some of you must be married (I am not), this is really distressing.

Is there anything Phatmass can do to help with this situation? Cuz just arguing with people in forums doesn't seem to be correcting the problem. People just insist they know and they're right and you're an intolerant jerk, so there.

[Guest]

Considering marriage this is even more distressing 

[Maggyie]

6 minutes ago, Josh said:

Considering marriage this is even more distressing 

The lack of a crucifix makes it seem like an Epidcopalian thing. But the celebrant is an elderly man, not an elderly woman. Which suggests Catholic. Hmmmm

28 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

These marriage threads are making me thinks even the relatively well-catechized Catholics don't understand the first thing about marriage. Considering some of you must be married (I am not), this is really distressing.

Is there anything Phatmass can do to help with this situation? Cuz just arguing with people in forums doesn't seem to be correcting the problem. People just insist they know and they're right and you're an intolerant jerk, so there.

Well it seems even the pope isn't sure since on one hand he says cultural issues can make it tough to contract marriage but on the other hand I read something from him where he says its relatively easy to contract. I've read for years about canon lawyers indicating that extreme immaturity makes for an invalid bond, but maturity isn't on the list of things that make a valid marriage. This isn't me criticizing the pope, I'm just frustrated by his style. 

[Guest]

Just now, Maggyie said:

The lack of a crucifix makes it seem like an Epidcopalian thing. But the celebrant is an elderly man, not an elderly woman. Which suggests Catholic. Hmmmm

 

2016  St. Matthews Parish in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles

Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest

[Maggyie]

That's bad. 

[Guest]

[Nihil Obstat]

We only needed that on one thread, Josh.

[Guest]

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest

[Gabriela]

Photographic evidence some bishops are not doing their jobs.  

[Spem in alium]

I think that in some areas of that article Adam Shaw leaps a bit too far. 

Re. the validity point, I think there are certainly a number of marriages that would be invalid: people not knowing really what they're entering into, pressure from parents to marry, not being open to children or intending to abort/use contraception. There are people who marry in a Catholic ceremony because they're baptised Catholic and are pressured by their parents or extended families. They don't actually "want" a Catholic marriage as it should be wanted. But saying that most marriages are invalid...I think that's treading on dangerous ground.

Recently I heard a story about a couple who were married, and the day after the wedding the husband said to his wife, "You know, I only married you to win a bet with my friends. I don't really love you." He had been pretending for years. Obviously this is extreme, but I think it does show there are people out there who don't understand the gravity of the sacrament.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Spem in alium

[truthfinder]

I think taking HCF's and Nihil's points together, yes, the Church presumes the validity of marriages conducted, but more priests need to all safe-guard the sacrament and inquire more deeply into the motivations of the couple and be willing to say 'no' to weddings that are only about the pictures (which may indicate a lack of understanding of the sacramental nature or indicate lack of maturity) or if that's what the parents' want (which may indicate a sort of pressure to marry).  

[HisChildForever]

3 hours ago, Gabriela said:

These marriage threads are making me thinks even the relatively well-catechized Catholics don't understand the first thing about marriage. Considering some of you must be married (I am not), this is really distressing.

A ballsy declaration if I ever heard one.

[Nihil Obstat]

2 minutes ago, HisChildForever said:

A ballsy declaration if I ever heard one.

If Pope Francis is to be believed, perhaps even not ballsy enough.  

[Maggyie]

4 hours ago, Gabriela said:

These marriage threads are making me thinks even the relatively well-catechized Catholics don't understand the first thing about marriage. Considering some of you must be married (I am not), this is really distressing.

Is there anything Phatmass can do to help with this situation? Cuz just arguing with people in forums doesn't seem to be correcting the problem. People just insist they know and they're right and you're an intolerant jerk, so there.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Maggyie

[HisChildForever]

4 hours ago, truthfinder said:

I think taking HCF's and Nihil's points together, yes, the Church presumes the validity of marriages conducted, but more priests need to all safe-guard the sacrament and inquire more deeply into the motivations of the couple and be willing to say 'no' to weddings that are only about the pictures (which may indicate a lack of understanding of the sacramental nature or indicate lack of maturity) or if that's what the parents' want (which may indicate a sort of pressure to marry).  

Right. I don't feel that I adequately explained myself in that post because I was on lunch break and had to be quick. Basically I feel like the Pope was speaking in retrospect. The Church grants annulments, stating that after careful processing, research, and prayer there are marriages deemed to be invalid, after the presumption that the marriage was valid. I hope that the Pope has the statistics to back up his statement. If annulments have been on a steady incline this suggests that either more and more sacramental marriages are deemed invalid, or annulments are being granted too freely. Whatever the case proper marriage prep is essential in determining which couples are ready and which couples need more time. Ultimately we need better catechesis at the root which will later ensure a fully formed Catholic conscience. But that's a different topic.

Edited June 22, 2016 by HisChildForever
Grammar