Thoughts On Slavery

[Seven77]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Another post from black Catholic friend on Facebook.................."So today I learned that slavery wasn't so bad, black people need to stop wielding it as a weapon as much as they do. And at the same time that slavery wasn't so bad, we're dusting off that nonsense about the Irish slaves, which despite being debunked to death, makes no sense because slavery wasn't bad but then was bad because white people were slaves...seriously, the lies, the mental gymnastics you people do to maintain your white supremacy, like my girl said, God sees you! And when your actions and words hurt others, God's not going to give a croutons that ypu pretended to vote prolife, because you didnt."

Tell your friend to join phatmass, friend me on fb, and read a blog post im writing soon...link coming soon (i'll post it here). 

[KnightofChrist]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Another post from black Catholic friend on Facebook.................."So today I learned that slavery wasn't so bad, black people need to stop wielding it as a weapon as much as they do. And at the same time that slavery wasn't so bad, we're dusting off that nonsense about the Irish slaves, which despite being debunked to death, makes no sense because slavery wasn't bad but then was bad because white people were slaves...seriously, the lies, the mental gymnastics you people do to maintain your white supremacy, like my girl said, God sees you! And when your actions and words hurt others, God's not going to give a croutons that ypu pretended to vote prolife, because you didnt."

Irish slaves in America and other parts of the world did in fact exist. Someone has mislead your friend. I invite you to read the chapter "Irish Exported as Slaves" in the 1907 book "Historical Sketch of the Persecutions Suffered by the Catholics of Ireland" By Patrick Francis Moran

The only sources I can find that have "debunked" it are democrat (aka party of slavery+) leaning sites.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hMnUAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA341&lpg=PA351&dq=#v=twopage&q&f=false

[Seven77]

55 minutes ago, Josh said:

“Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons.... It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given.”

 

Pope Blessed Pius IX, June 20, 1866: 

Source? I'd like to read the full context.

[CatherineM]

I'm assuming all those who believe that slavery from 200 years ago has ruined their lives today, are fighting for those toiling in slavery today such as Asians enslaved on fishing ships or child soldiers in Africa or Filipino nannies or sex slaves in Every country on Earth.

My ancestors owned slaves and captained ships in the slavery trade. I have worked with groups like Not For Sale for decades in contrition for them even though I personally hold no guilt for their legal actions at the time. 

[KnightofChrist]

@Josh Here are two other sources for evidence of Irish Slaves in America.

ENGLAND'S IRISH SLAVES by Robert E. West

The Irish Slave Trade – The Forgotten “White” Slaves by John Martin

Source of images: http://www.sinhalanet.net/britains-white-slaves-david-cameron-what-happened-to-850000-irish-slaves

[Guest]

Just now, Seven77 said:

Source? I'd like to read the full context.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14039a.htm

Just now, KnightofChrist said:

@Josh Here are two other sources for evidence of Irish Slaves in America.

ENGLAND'S IRISH SLAVES by Robert E. West

The Irish Slave Trade – The Forgotten “White” Slaves by John Martin

Source of images: http://www.sinhalanet.net/britains-white-slaves-david-cameron-what-happened-to-850000-irish-slaves

Thanks I was unaware either way. Going to read this.

Just now, CatherineM said:

I'm assuming all those who believe that slavery from 200 years ago has ruined their lives today, are fighting for those toiling in slavery

I think all forms of slavery are always instinctively evil and always have been. Beating a slave for any reason can never be justified. That Catholics and even the Bible and Church doesn't seem to agree with this is troubling to me. 

Edited July 29, 2016 by Guest

[little2add]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

 

 That Catholics and even the Bible and Church doesn't seem to agree with this is troubling to me. 

Catholics and even the Bible and Church consider slavery immoral and a grave sin against humanity?  

[Guest]

Just now, little2add said:

Catholics and even the Bible and Church consider slavery immoral and a grave sin against humanity?  

All forms?

[little2add]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

All forms?

You know of any?  Name one (in the present)

[KnightofChrist]

5 hours ago, Josh said:

All forms?

I am curious, have you read the source article for the quote of Pope Eugene IV that @Seven77 provided?

I have read it, having done so I thank Fr. Joel S. Panzer for writing that article, and thank Seven for providing it for us. Because your position had sown seeds of doubt in my head about the Church.

@Josh did you know Pope Eugene IV in Sicut Dudum condemned the enslavement and slave trade of black people the moment the Holy See had learned of the practice? And did so 60 years before Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue, 60 years. Another important matter is the location of the offense, the Canary Islands. From what I understand of where the first black slaves where taken in Africa, the Canary Islands would be in that general location.

So what do we have here @Josh?

• What we have is a Pope condemning the enslavement and slave trade of black persons 60 years before Christopher Columbus set foot on what would become American soil.
   
• What we have is a Pope condemning the enslavement and slave trade of black people as soon as the Holy See learns of it, in the very geographical local where all the wicked mess may have all began. 
   
• What we have here is a Pope who promises to excommunicated, thrown out of the Church, those who do not cease in the enslavement, theft, and slave trade of the African people on the Canary Islands.

This makes very clear that the Church from the beginning of the wicked practice condemned the slavery black people endured in America and other parts of the world.

Still, what are we to make of the quote that you provide @Josh apparently by Pope Blessed Pius IX in 1866? If the quote is accurate it seems to call into question the condemnation of Pope Eugene IV in 1435. 

Or could Pope Blessed Pius IX have actually meant just-title servitude?

There are two different forms of just-title servitude, freely chosen financial servitude and forced penal servitude. We have something very similar for both of those forms today. Entering into a contractible agreement to do construction work for an employer and prisoners cleaning the sides of roadways.

Financial servitude and penal servitude are also the two types of servitude that you've been questioning the Bible over. Financial servitude for it to be just would have to be freely chosen, the servant would have to be paid justly, and released after seven years. There was a time when prisons didn't exist like they do today. So people would be sentenced to servitude and forced to repay their dept to society by servitude instead of imprisonment.

This is by no means the greatest example of just-title servitude but there is the case of Jacob (who would become Israel). He agreed to financial servitude for seven years to a man named Laban, for his daughter Rachael. Laban deprived him of his just wages, changed them numerous times, and at the of the seven years tricked Jacob into marrying Leah instead. So Jacob agrees to another seven years to marry Rachel. Did Laban treat Jacob unjustly? You bet, but more like a bad boss would cheat his workers, rather than a slave master who treats his slaves like animals. Again, not a good example of just-title servitude, but in the end Jacob went free with various riches, livestock, a caravan of people to lead, and two wives. That's a far different kind of servitude, and I dare say better form than what black people had live under. 

Again @Josh, please if you have not done so read the article by Fr. Joel S. Panzer. To be frank, it seems to easily knock down all the points, issues, questions, accusations, or whatever that you've raised about slavery and the Church. It goes into much greater detail than anything you've provide thus far and source various other popes condemning slavery. Please, before you continue to sow doubts of the Church's position on slavery into the minds of others, you should read it all the way through.

 http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/POPSLAVE.HTM

 

 

 

On 7/28/2016 at 9:31 PM, Seven77 said:

 Exactly… except I would add that the New Testament basically does disallow slavery.

 For a Catholic it is very clear that slavery is wrong and immoral. I forgot which Pope it was that condemned the slave trade before anyone else really did. I'm going to go look him up right now.

"They have deprived the natives of their property or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery (<subdiderunt perpetuae servituti>), sold them to other persons and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them.... Therefore We ... exhort, through the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ shed for their sins, one and all, temporal princes, lords, captains, armed men, barons, soldiers, nobles, communities and all others of every kind among the Christian faithful of whatever state, grade or condition, that they themselves desist from the aforementioned deeds, cause those subject to them to desist from them, and restrain them rigorously. And no less do We order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex that, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their pristine liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands ... who have been made subject to slavery (<servituti subicere>). These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of any money."

- Pope  Eugene IV, Sicut Dudum, 1435

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/POPSLAVE.HTM

 

 

[Guest]

Everything I posted was from Catholic Answers. I'm not trying to sow doubts as you accuse me of. If that's how you feel that's fine and I accept you feel that way. I guess the best thing for me to do would of been to open an account there and take part in the conversation at Catholic Answers instead of bringing it here. I'm not trying to weaken anyone's faith. From my understanding not all forms of slavery are viewed as instinctively evil from a Christian/Catholic viewpoint. That's what I have found troubling so that's why I brought it up.

Just now, Josh said:

Everything I posted was from Catholic Answers. I'm not trying to sow doubts as you accuse me of. If that's how you feel that's fine and I accept you feel that way. I guess the best thing for me to do would of been to open an account there and take part in the conversation at Catholic Answers instead of bringing it here. I'm not trying to weaken anyone's faith. From my understanding not all forms of slavery are viewed as instinctively evil from a Christian/Catholic viewpoint. That's what I have found troubling so that's why I brought it up.

It wouldn't let me edit............................. Everything I posted was from Catholic Answers. I'm not trying to sow doubts as you accuse me of. If that's how you feel that's fine and I accept you feel that way. I guess the best thing for me to do would of been to open an account there and take part in the conversation at Catholic Answers instead of bringing it here. I'm not trying to weaken anyone's faith. From my understanding not all forms of slavery are viewed as instinctively evil from a Christian/Catholic viewpoint. That's what I have found troubling so that's why I brought it up. I just had a Christian/Catholic defend slavery from the Biblical times and tell me how it wasn't really slavery ect ect ect ect that it can some how be reasoned that it was ever okay or permissible to beat a slave. Look I accept it's part of history and it happened but I'm just having trouble being convinced that ANY form of slavery that ever occurred was ever moral and not instinctively evil. From other Catholic and Christian viewpoints I seem to be in the minority on this opinion.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Guest

[LittleWaySoul]

@Josh, I asked a friend about the whole God-being-"meaner"-in-the-OT thing for ya and he recommends the book "We Have Found Mercy" by Cardinal Schoenborn. I guess there's a chapter on this topic in there somewhere. Thought I'd mention it.  

[dominicansoul]

Slavery was a part of society back then.  Segregation was also a part of the custom.  My parents grew up in a heavily segregated town.  They just didn't think anything about it.  it was a part of life.  The people from their generation are dying off.  Those who are still living probably appreciate how far we've come and how they never recognized back then how bad it was.

We get numb to injustice.  Just like today, abortion is legal and babies are still getting slaughtered and crushed and body parts sold.  But that's not even a "viable" issue to Catholics when they choose who to vote for.  We become numb to the evil.    

I hope our descendants don't look back and judge us entirely by the laws we lived under.  I hope they recognize that there were those of us who did what they could to turn the tide...

[Seven77]

A Must Read:

"[W]e should be clear about what we mean by slavery and the real story of the Catholic Church's position on it. As used here, slavery is the condition of involuntary servitude in which a human being is regarded as no more than the property of another, as being without basic human rights; in other words, as a thing rather than a person. Under this definition, slavery is intrinsically evil, since no person may legitimately be regarded or treated as a mere thing or object. This form of slavery can be called chattel slavery. (There are other ways in which the term can be used, such as in reference to the slavery discussed in the Old Testament, where slaves were regarded as property but nonetheless as bearers of human rights.)"

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/let-my-people-go-the-catholic-church-and-slavery.html

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

Slavery was a part of society back then.  Segregation was also a part of the custom.  My parents grew up in a heavily segregated town.  They just didn't think anything about it.  it was a part of life.  The people from their generation are dying off.  Those who are still living probably appreciate how far we've come and how they never recognized back then how bad it was.

We get numb to injustice.  Just like today, abortion is legal and babies are still getting slaughtered and crushed and body parts sold.  But that's not even a "viable" issue to Catholics when they choose who to vote for.  We become numb to the evil.    

I hope our descendants don't look back and judge us entirely by the laws we lived under.  I hope they recognize that there were those of us who did what they could to turn the tide...

Hi @dominicansoul God bless you hope you're well. The point of this thread wasn't to judge people of the past on slavery. I think ANY form of slavery is messed up and instinctively evil but again I'm not judging anyone no matter how evil I think slave owners might have been. I'm evil too so we have a lot in common. May God have Mercy on us all. The point of this thread was the valid points an atheist poster made on Catholic Answers Forums questioning how the Bible dealt with slavery. Unlike atheist I truly believe God exists and the Bible is His word and The Catholic Church is the Church He founded. So yes it messes with me a bit when an atheist makes VALID points as he did in the thread I linked from Catholic answers. Because I expect the Bible and the Church to always get it right. And I just won't write him off (Atheist at Catholic Answers Forum) because he doesn't believe in God or the Catholic Church. Am I wrong for this? Possibly? I'm not sure. This issue doesn't wreck my faith or make me think the Bible is baloney. Although it does challenge my faith and make me think. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Again my intent was not to to make anyone have doubts and as I said previously everything I posted was from Catholic Answers including the quote on slavery from a former Pope. @Seven77 thanks for the links I viewed one of them and am going to get to the other one shortly. Thank you. God bless everyone.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Guest