Spiritual Warnings In The Bible

[ironmonk]

[b]Spiritual Warnings in the Bible[/b]


[b]Acts 20:28 [/b]Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood.
[b]29 [/b]I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
[b]30 [/b]And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.


[b]2 Pet 3:15 [/b]And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
[b]16 [/b]speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

[b]1 Tim 3:15 [/b]But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.


How can we know that we are in Christ's Church if we do not study what the first Christians taught?


Those who have left the Church established by Christ do so to their own destruction as the Scriptures say.

How can we know Christ's Church without reading the first Christian writings starting with the first century AD?


To name just a few...
The Didache, St. Ignatius of Antioch, The Protoevangelium of James, St. Clement I, St. Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Origen, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ambrose of Milan, Council of Ephesus, Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom, etc...


All of their writings are available for free and for purchase:

FREE: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/[/url]

$250: [url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/518"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/518[/url] Prot Edition
[url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/631"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/631[/url] Catholic Edition

Why two versions?

"The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is [u][b]that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date[/b][/u]. There is no difference in the actual ECF text."



Why would protestants have to add to the first Christian writings?




God Bless,
ironmonk

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Why would protestants have to add to the first Christian writings?[/quote]

because everything shortly after the last apostle died is nothing but commentary and opinion...just like all the commentary and opinion thats out there today.

Catholic AND Protestant.

[Justified Saint]

Lumber, what value is there do you think in studying the early Church fathers?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 21 2004, 04:46 PM']
because everything shortly after the last apostle died is nothing but commentary and opinion...just like all the commentary and opinion thats out there today.

Catholic AND Protestant. [/quote]
Where does that say that in the bible?


What about what Christ said (points bolded)....


[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build [b]my church[/b], and [b]the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it[/b]."


[b]St. Matt 28:18 [/b]Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
[b]19 [/b]Go, therefore, and [b]make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,[/b]
[b]20 [/b]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. [b]And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.[/b]"


Who were the Disciples that Christ said to make? St. Ignatius was one of them, a pupil of St. John the Apostle. Said to be the child that Christ held up when He said "Blessed be the Children".


[b]Matt 5:13 [/b] "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
[b]14 [/b] Y[b]ou are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. [/b]
[b]15[/b] Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.


[b]John 14:16 [/b]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you [b]another Advocate to be with you always,[/b]
[b]17 [/b][b]the Spirit of truth[/b], which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
[b]18 [/b][b]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you[/b].
...
[b]26 [/b][b]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name[/b]--he [b]will teach you everything [/b]and remind you of all that (I) told you.





Christ made a covenant with us. Christ keeps His word.

The bible does not say it's commentary... but the bible says that all who leave the group will do so to their destruction.


How do you know that you are in the right group? And if you are not in a group, what does that say?




God Bless,
ironmonk

[ICTHUS]

[quote]How do you know that you are in the right group? [/quote] If the group is faithful to the Word and the Sacraments, of course. The Catholic Church is not, for she teaches transubstantiation, which contradicts even Trent's definition of a sacrament in eliminating the sign so that only the thing signified remains, and has added five other 'sacraments'. I quote the Anglican Thirty-nine Articles of Religion

[quote]Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God. [/quote]

Edited June 21, 2004 by ICTHUS

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:19 PM'] If the group is faithful to the Word and the Sacraments, of course. The Catholic Church is not, for she teaches transubstantiation, which contradicts even Trent's definition of a sacrament in eliminating the sign so that only the thing signified remains, and has added five other 'sacraments'. I quote the Anglican Thirty-nine Articles of Religion

[/quote]
Wrong.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Guest JeffCR07]

Icthus, just to build upon what Ironmonk is getting at:

Such an outlook really is, simply put, wrong, unless you are backing your believe with something else besides that.

Authority comes from God (It all authority was His in the beginning and will be His again in the end)

God (Jesus) establishes his Church, and hands authority over to Peter (Keys, in the Old Testament, signify Monarchical Authority)

If you deny that Rome has the authority to judge matters of faith and morals, who then DOES have the authority?

Is it each and every man, as Luther said, guided by the inner light of the Spirit. Please note, Luther also said that "Scripture is clear. A farmboy can understand it just as well as the most intelligent Bishop."

This leads us to an interesting dilemma. Two individuals "guided by the inner light of the Spirit" interpret something dealing with faith and morals differently. Who is right? If they both have authority, can they both say, with authority, that the other is wrong, and still be right? Or maybe no one has authority, and Christ just left us knowing that spiritual anarchy would follow after he ascended into Heaven. Or maybe its just whoever makes the most logical sense (who is smarter) and Luther was wrong - the intelligent Bishop [i]is[/i] right. Or maybe we don't know for sure who is right, and the only thing we [i]do[/i]know for certain is that Rome is wrong.

The fact of the matter is, Christ would never intend for this sort of dilemma to occur in the first place. He gave us the Magisterium and the Church, and he gave it Authority over these matters.

Just because I can get a bunch of people together and declare that the sky is falling doesnt mean that it actually is.

Just because a bunch of people got together and said that "Rome is wrong, THESE are the new Sacraments" doesn't mean that the Truth changes.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:19 PM'] If the group is faithful to the Word and the Sacraments, of course. The Catholic Church is not, for she teaches transubstantiation, which contradicts even Trent's definition of a sacrament in eliminating the sign so that only the thing signified remains, and has added five other 'sacraments'. I quote the Anglican Thirty-nine Articles of Religion

[/quote]
Do you verify what those who attack the Catholic Church say to you?

Verify it from Catholic sources, not theirs. They will not send you to a site that really tells what the Church teaches, if they "quote" something, please verify it from a Catholic source.

Here is an expert, and the link to read the entire section to get the full picture.

[quote]The Council of Trent (Sess. XIII, cap. iv; can. ii) not only accepted as an inheritance of faith the truth contained in the idea, but authoritatively confirmed the "aptitude of the term" to express most strikingly the legitimately developed doctrinal concept. In a closer logical analysis of Transubstantiation, we find the first and fundamental notion to be that of conversion, which may be defined as "the transition of one thing into another in some aspect of being".

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3[/url]
[/quote]



Here are a few sites that will show the light of Truth about the Catholic Church:

[url="http://www.USCCB.org"]http://www.USCCB.org[/url]
[url="http://www.NewAdvent.org"]http://www.NewAdvent.org[/url]
[url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url]
[url="http://www.Catholic-Pages.com"]http://www.Catholic-Pages.com[/url]
[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url]
[url="http://www.EWTN.com"]http://www.EWTN.com[/url]

Almost all attacks on the Church can be easily proven to be fallicy when getting the facts of what the Catholic Church teaches from the the real Catholic sites above.



Why does it seem that you try so hard to leave the Church? Many of us here are concerned. Remember, if we are among thorns, they could choke us [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew13.htm"](St. Matt 13:7)[/url]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Guest JeffCR07]

great job Ironmonk! *can't help but slap a high five*

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:00 PM'] Why does it seem that you try so hard to leave the Church? Many of us here are concerned. Remember, if we are among thorns, they could choke us [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew13.htm"](St. Matt 13:7)[/url] [/quote]
Because I've done the apologist thing for awhile, and basically, I've come to the conclusion that the Church is indefensible.

[Archbishop 10-K]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 21 2004, 08:00 PM'] Because I've done the apologist thing for awhile, and basically, I've come to the conclusion that the Church is indefensible. [/quote]
What now, then?

[Quietfire]

[quote]Because I've done the apologist thing for awhile, and basically, I've come to the conclusion that the Church is indefensible.[/quote]


Indefensible as in wont defend herself? Or indefensible as in cant defend herself?

Careful.




Peace.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I think the Catholic Church is the only defensible church.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I definately agree. All other protestant denominations have the problem of delegation of authority, the logical expounding of which inevitably leads to a full or semi-moral relativism that degrades the foundations of any philosophical (let alone religious) system.

Moreover, just as a sidenote, the vast majority of Protestant denominations seperate with the Catholic Church on account of Paul's teaching, yet the apostles explicitly comment on how hard his teachings are to understand, and warn that we must tread carefully with regards to them.

Honestly, there is simply too much scriptural foundation to argue convincingly against Catholicism, particulatly in conjunction with the fact that those who are making such arguments do so without any form of established authority.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 21 2004, 08:55 PM'] I definately agree. All other protestant denominations have the problem of delegation of authority, the logical expounding of which inevitably leads to a full or semi-moral relativism that degrades the foundations of any philosophical (let alone religious) system.

Moreover, just as a sidenote, the vast majority of Protestant denominations seperate with the Catholic Church on account of Paul's teaching, yet the apostles explicitly comment on how hard his teachings are to understand, and warn that we must tread carefully with regards to them.

Honestly, there is simply too much scriptural foundation to argue convincingly against Catholicism, particulatly in conjunction with the fact that those who are making such arguments do so without any form of established authority.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff [/quote]
You've obviously never argued against the opponents I've heard and argued against.

[Hananiah]

Ryan, I don't think it's the best idea to argue with experienced Protestant apologists then come to Phatmass for help. For Christ's sake, this site is full of teenagers. Chances are there is a much better Catholic argument out there than whatever someone tells you here. Go to someone of equal or greater experience than the person you are debating, not a message board filled mostly with people less experienced even than yourself. Read books by Reginald Garrigou-LaGrange (ardent Thomist), attend a talk by Gerry Matatics (always has Q & A sessions), e-mail Robert Sungenis (he personally answers all serious questions, though it's best to keep it brief since he is a very busy man. address is cairomeo@aol.com), there are a million better places to come for advice than here. This site is mostly for fledgling apologists who are just learning their trade. Serious Catholic apologists and scholars have about ten times as much experience as the best of us.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 21 2004, 11:10 PM']You've obviously never argued against the opponents I've heard and argued against.[/quote]
Every time that you have brought one of their arguements to me, I have been able to show you the error with references.

How can you think like that?

Why do you think they keep changing the subject?

When you look at everything they preach, it contradicts itself.

How can the One True Faith contradict itself?

Every single arguement they throw falls flat when looking at what the facts are.

I have heard many of the same arguements that you speak of and have sent me.

None of them hold up.

I don't understand how you can say such things after seeing so many of their arguments fail.

For example, circle, he uses circular arguements and his arguements do not hold up under scrutiny at all when verified with what the Church teaches. Stop taking their word for the meaning of a Catholic teaching. He avoids questions by asking irrelevant questions. Why do you think he would call himself the 'circle master'?

Stay away from thorns until you have had your study and faith firmly planted... I've been reading the bible for about 25 years bro... and I know it very well... I know the Catholic Church teachings... I know that the only Church to fit the One Church is the Catholic Church.

All others who leave the group started by Christ do so to their own destruction... they will distort the Scriptures and they will draw true believers away after them.

Why do you think that all of the ECF's were Catholic, loyal to the Pope? Because it's the True Church.

If the Catholic Church is not the Church established by Christ, then the bible is worthless paper... and there is no God. For it was the Catholic Church which gave us the NT... if the Catholic Church is not the Church established by Christ which Christ promised the Holy Spirit to guide in All Truth, to teach and to remind... then there is no God. The very quote you have from luther attests to the fact that only because of the Catholic Church is it that we have the bible. If that is so, then all who leave the group of the Catholic Church do so to their own destruction.

The oldest non-Catholic church was started in 1517 AD. Only the Catholic Church, with Pope JPII can be the Church established by Christ.

The thorns try to pull you from the Church with complex circle talk... when it's very simple.... if their arguments held any ground, they would not need to be complex.

Facts:[list]
[*]Christ promised that the Church would never be overcome
[*]Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church in all truth
[*]Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would teach and remind the Church
[*]Christ promised that the Church would be like a city on a mountain which cannot be hidden. A light to the world.
[*]Christ gave the Church the power to forgive sins
[*]Christ told the Church to make disciples of nations.
[*]The Apostles preached to us to be unified having only One Faith... not two, three, or more.
[*]The Apostles told us that all those who leave the Church are wrong to do so and they do so to their own destruction
[*]Christ made Peter the first leader. All Popes are successors of Peter.
[*]Protestants protest the Catholic faith, there is no one protestant faith. Luther, father of the protestants claimed that the Church lost it's way.... therefore Luther believed that Christ lied or was wrong.
[*]Luther's 95 Thesis was a basis of lies and half truths. If people could read back then, and had access to resources like we do today, luther would not have had such a following.
[*]Remember how Christ stated that a house devided falls? Why would Christ want protestant churches where if the memebers disagree, they can grab a bible (which is a Catholic book), and start their own Church... That is division, and the protestant churches have spawned almost geometrically.
[*]All protestant churches believe that the Catholic Church is right on some things, that other protestant church believe the Church to be wrong on.... If the protestant churches are right; how can they be one faith? If they are right, how can there be a God when Christ taught One Faith?
[*]St. Augustine said it best.... The Catholic Faith may be confirmed even by the dissensions of the heretics.
[/list]The Church that Christ built, being like a city on a mountain will be seen for the last 2000 years in history. Only the Catholic Church is seen in the last 2000 years... none other.

Trying the "Apologetics Thing" will not work and will cause you to loose faith if you do not know your faith.

If this thorns that you debate with are good people, why do they try to pull you from your Church? If they had the truth, they wouldn't have to attack the Catholic Church.

You should really know your faith before trying to defend it... remember, start simple... in 33 AD.

One Faith in 33 AD, will be the One Faith of 2004 AD... as Christ said, you will see a learning because the Holy Spirit teaches the Church... I believe Christ's promises. You can trust Christ, you cannot trust anyone who tries to pull you out of His Church.

If these protestant attackers are so good at proving the Catholic Church wrong, have them take my challenge....

[url="http://www.baptistboard.net/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32"]http://www.baptistboard.net/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32[/url]

It's also on this board someone but it will take to long to find and it's late.

I just simply do not understand how you can reject Christ's Church when there is no other Church that fits all of the Facts. We are not expected to understand it all... but with prayer, time, and study will come understanding. Then we will be prepared for the spiritual battle that satan comes at us with.

God Bless, Love in Christ,
ironmonk

Edited June 22, 2004 by ironmonk