Praying In Front Of Statues

[dUSt]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 22 2004, 09:17 PM'] Because Many many protestants think Catholics worship statues, I thought I said so... [/quote]
Okay, but I don't think Lumberjack thinks that, yet, he still looks down on praying in front of statues.

So, for those who don't believe it is worship, what's their reason for thinking it's wrong? I guess that's my question.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jun 22 2004, 09:19 PM'] Okay, but I don't think Lumberjack thinks that, yet, he still looks down on praying in front of statues.

So, for those who don't believe it is worship, what's their reason for thinking it's wrong? I guess that's my question. [/quote]
Reply Lumberjack?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 22 2004, 11:38 AM'] There are highly elaborately done cursive writings that could qualify as paintings, but they depict no people. [/quote]
In Iran (Persia) the Shia Muslims there have depicted images of human beings in Mosques, and for religious purposes in general. Sunni Islam is normally opposed to any human or animal forms being used for any purpose, religious or secular.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 23 2004, 05:47 PM'] In Iran (Persia) the Shia Muslims there have depicted images of human beings in Mosques, and for religious purposes in general. Sunni Islam is normally opposed to any human or animal forms being used for any purpose, religious or secular. [/quote]
Shiites have different beliefs than Sunnais, they believe that their Mollahs, and Sheiks are actually Divine. They interpretate Infallible as godly. They also have different pray styles, holy days and so on.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Jun 23 2004, 02:26 AM']Shiites have different beliefs than Sunnais, they believe that their Mollahs, and Sheiks are actually Divine. They interpretate Infallible as godly. They also have different pray styles, holy days and so on.[/quote]
Just as there are differences between the Sunni and the Shia; there are differences between the various groups of Shia throughout the world. In Iran the 'twelver' form of Shia Islam is practiced. This sect holds that the twelfth Imam, Al-Mahdi, born in 868 AD, went into hiding at the end of the 9th century, i.e., that he went into what is called the "Lesser Occultation," and he did this in order to avoid persecution by the governing authorities of the Caliphal Empire. During the time of the "Lesser Occultation" the Imam al-Mahdi could still communicate with his followers directly, even though he was hidden, but some time later he went into what is called the "Greater Occultation," and since that occurred no direct communication with him is possible, but God miraculously keeps him alive, and it is believed that he will return in order to bring peace and to vindicate his followers by punishing those who have persecuted them. As far as his being "divine" is concerned, the Shia of Iran do believe that he possesses a divine spark, something less than the Christian concept of the incarnation, and so he is not God [i]per se[/i], but he is in some way a manifestation of the divine in the world. The Ayatollah's and Mullah's of today, are considered to be his representatives on earth, and although they cannot communicate directly with him, their guidance of the community is seen as inspired and must not be questioned.

[yiannii]

wouldn't watching the passion of the christ count as idolatory in some people's books?

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jun 22 2004, 08:19 PM'] Okay, but I don't think Lumberjack thinks that, yet, he still looks down on praying in front of statues.

So, for those who don't believe it is worship, what's their reason for thinking it's wrong? I guess that's my question. [/quote]
oh yes you do know, dusty boy. we've discussed this before.

the verse from Leviticus I've posted will sum it up for you...

and, btw, Jason, I need no prompting from you to reply...thank you.

-------

as for not making images, Cmom, you said:

[quote]We are not to worship a graven image, but nowhere does it say we cannot make images. The jews made images of angels to represent God guarding the Ark of the Covanant. So they had no problem with images.[/quote]

Leviticus was pretty good about making and bowing down before an image.

Leviticus 26:1

[b]Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.[/b]

[theculturewarrior]

LJ:

For one, God himself commanded the making of images...the bronze serpent, the Angels on the Arc of the Covenant, and the angels in the temple in the vision of Ezekiel. Therefore, Catholics read the above quote to mean something else.

If images are completely prohibited, then we would have to destroy all art, all sculpture, regardless of it's content. A statue of a cowboy would be flung onto the same dungheap as Michelangelo's Pieta, but I don't think that's what you were talking about.

(But that is what the scrupulous interpretation of the commandment is, and it is present in 7th c. eastern iconoclasm, as well as islam, and finally, fundamentalist Christianity.)

It must mean something else because God commanded the Israelites to make graven images as stated above. Catholics interpret that contextually to mean that graven images are not objectively bad, but rather, it depends on what the image is of, and how the image is to be used.

Because Jesus came to us in the flesh, images are okay now, because Jesus was true God and true man, and you can make an image of a man. We can also make images of Saints, because they like us are flesh and blood. And God himself commanded images of angels to be made.

Now, it has to do with intent. We would not make an image of Molech, not for latria or dulia. We read the OT commandments as forbidding such things. But an image of Saint Francis is different, because, 1.) we don't worship the image, and 2.) We know the image is not God, not above God, and is of a man, who is in heaven worshipping God.

Can't you see the difference?

[Justified Saint]

Rather Leviticus warns against worshiping idols and statues. Praying/kneeling before an image doesn't demand worship since that is not what is going on in the heart's and mind's of God's faithful. Worship is in the heart and mind as much as anything else - you don't have to erect physical statues and graven images to worship idols.

[dUSt]

Okay, forgive me LJ. I must have forgot we talked about this before. I'm involved with so many different things it's easy to get thrown off.

I see how you're interpreting Leviticus, and I respect that. I am unclear though if you think that Leviticus is telling us to not make statues at all, or if you think it's telling us to not worship statues. I don't think you think Catholics worship statues (because you've been around us long enough to know that), so I'm assuming you think Leviticus is instructing us to not even make statues, period. Am I correct in assuming this?

Also, I think it's a good idea to look at several different English translations of the same verse:

[b]NAB:[/b] "Do not make false gods for yourselves. You shall not erect an idol or a sacred pillar for yourselves, nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land; for I, the LORD, am your God."

[b]Douay Rheims:[/b] "I am the Lord your God. You shall not make to yourselves any idol or graven thing: neither shall you erect pillars, nor set up a remarkable stone in your land, to adore it. For I am the Lord your God."

[b]Modern KJV:[/b] "You shall make no idols to yourselves; and you shall not set up for yourselves graven images, or a memorial pillar. And you shall not set up any image of stone in your land in order to bow down to it. For I am the LORD your God."

[b]RSV:[/b] "Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God."

Now, to me, this verse is clearly a declaration by God that He is the one and only God, and we should not worship anything besides him--the first commandment. He's instructing the people of the time (who [b]did[/b] worship statues and pillars) that HE was God. You'll notice that God doesn't say that images should not be created at all, as in every translation, it's followed by "to adore" or "to bow down before it" or "for worship". This is what leads me to believe that his commandment was not against making images, but worshipping them--which , of course, nobody should do.

I think I'm going to study the history and background of Leviticus now, as I'll admit to never doing that yet... maybe it'll help me put this into a better context.

[dUSt]

Also, using your interpretation of this verse in Leviticus, it would also prohibit the making of crosses. I'm pretty sure that most Protestant churches have crosses setup in their worship spaces. Just curious--are you opposed to this as well? Please explain why or why not.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

I know what you're saying dust...and for the most part, you're right about what I'm trying to say.

but, the Modern KJV and the RSV (don't think I've ever used it) are the only two references you list that plainly include the instruction NOT to bow down before it.

and I think you guys use the NAB, right?

so, yeah...you know what I'm trying to say.

God bless.

[Apotheoun]

As the Church Fathers often emphasized, and as the Rabbis openly admitted, the entire Temple complex in Jerusalem was an image of its Heavenly prototype. In both Judaism and Christianity, the image was seen as conveying and manifesting the reality of the thing signified, thus even the ancient Jews held that by worshipping at the Temple, they, in some mysterious way, had entered into Heaven itself.

In fact, even the written word is an icon, and the ancient Jews held that words contained the essence of the thing named, thus, when Adam named the animals in the book of Genesis, he was declaring their essence, for by naming them he knew their very nature. The idea that the "Word," especially the spoken word, but even the written word, was held to be life creating, was foundational for both Judaism and later for Christianity, because both religions hold that God Himself spoke His Word, and all things came into being.

I wrote a paper while finishing my first Bachelors degree at SF State University, and it centers on the concept of iconic participation and its importance in theology, especially in Christianity, which, because of the incarnation, is a dispensation of images, for Christ Himself is the image of the invisible God. To read that paper click on the link below:
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

Lev 26:1 "You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven images or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your hand, to bow done to; for I am the Lord your God"

This part of the Holiness Code is referrring back to the Code of the Covenant in Exodus:23: 20-23
....When my angel goes before you, and brings you in to the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and I blot them out, you shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works, but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their pillars in pieces.


Since we only worship one God, this doesn't apply to us. It does apply to the jews who worshipped calves as soon as they came out of Egypt, or the [i]massebot[/i] Canaanite male fertility symbols.


And since for the first 1500 years or so this wasn't an issue, why is it now?

Edited June 23, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 23 2004, 02:08 PM'] As the Church Fathers often emphasized, and as the Rabbis openly admitted, the entire Temple complex in Jerusalem was an image of its Heavenly prototype. In both Judaism and Christianity, the image was seen as conveying and manifesting the reality of the thing signified, thus even the ancient Jews held that by worshipping at the Temple, they, in some mysterious way, had entered into Heaven itself.

In fact, even the written word is an icon, and the ancient Jews held that words contained the essence of the thing named, thus, when Adam named the animals in the book of Genesis, he was declaring their essence, for by naming them he knew their very nature. The idea that the "Word," especially the spoken word, but even the written word, was held to be life creating, was foundational for both Judaism and later for Christianity, because both religions hold that God Himself spoke His Word, and all things came into being.

I wrote a paper while finishing my first Bachelors degree at SF State University, and it centers on the concept of iconic participation and its importance in theology, especially in Christianity, which, because of the incarnation, is a dispensation of images, for Christ Himself is the image of the invisible God. To read that paper click on the link below:
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm[/url] [/quote]
Can you please put your paper in the Apologetic section?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 23 2004, 12:17 PM'] Can you please put your paper in the Apologetic section? [/quote]
i added it to the entry on the communion of saints, under "statues and icons"

[phatcatholic]

while "bow down" holds the implication of "worship" in the verses that put forth the commandments, in need not always hold this implication.

[b]--it depends on the context--[/b]

in other verses of the bible, individuals "bow down" w/ no intent to worship (as in, give to something or someone else what belongs solely to God). likewise, when catholics "bow down" before statues of saints or the holy family our intent is not to worship either.

in Lev and Deut, the obvious context is that God does not want his people worshipping anyone or anything other then himself. that is why he says, "do not bown down." but look at bowing elsewhere in scripture (heck, i'll even use the KJV):

[b]Rev 3:9 [/b]Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
[b]--note:[/b] in the RSV, it is interpreted "bow down" before your feet, but the KJV here proves my point even further by using the word "worship." even when the word [i][b]worship[/b][/i] is used, idolatry is not always taking place. also note that God here is commanding the liars to perform this action.

[b]Gen 19:1 [/b]And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

[b]Gen 42:6 [/b]And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

[b]Jos 5:14 [/b]And he said, Nay; but as captain F13 of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
[b]--note:[/b] again the word "worship" is used, yet we know that Joshua is not giving the angel "God-required" worship but instead honor and veneration

[b]1 Sam 28:14 [/b]And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

[b]1 Kings 1:23 [/b]And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.

[b]2 Kings 2:15 [/b]And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

[b]1 Chron 21:21 [/b]And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground.

[b]Tobit 12:16 [/b]Then they were both troubled, and fell upon their faces: for they feared.

[b]Judith 14:7 [/b]But when they had recovered him, he fell at Judith's feet, and reverenced her, and said, Blessed art thou in all the tabernacles of Juda, and in all nations, which hearing thy name shall be astonished.

[b]Dan 2:46 [/b]Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.
[b]--note:[/b] there's that word "worship" again

[b]Dan 8:17 [/b]So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

in these verses, individuals are "bowing down" to show honor, veneration, or respect. the word "worship" is even used on occasion, but the context reveals that even this word need not mean "giving to others glory which belongs solely go God."

in short, context is essential to explain the nature and intent of the action

i hope this helps.........pax christi,
phatcatholic

[dUSt]

LJ,

I could understand where you're coming from if a Catholic considered bowing as worshipping. This is what Leviticus is prohibiting. It is not forbidding bowing--it's forbidding bowing as a sign of worship. Again, we should point out that Catholics do not bow towards statues as a sign of worship, but rather, a sign of respect (like them geniuses in the Kung Fu movies do before they whoop up on eachother).

Also, I'm curious to hear your answer on the analogy I presented with the cross. I've seen Protestants pray in front of crosses before. Your opinion on this?

[P3chrmd]

Hey guys!

Interesting topic! Im going to throw myself in the middle here! Someone may have pointed these verses out already...if you have...I'm sorry!

(Using The Jerusalem Bible)

[b]Ex. 25:18-20[/b] For the two ends of this throne of mercy you are to make two golden cherubs (Half-human, half-animal figures, corresponding to the tutelary deities guarding Babylonian shrines); you are to make them of beaten gold. Make the first cherub for one end and the second for the other, and fasten them to the two ends of the throne of mercy so that they make one piece with it. The cherubs are to have their wings spread upwards so that they overshadow the throne of mercy.

[b]Num. 21:8-9[/b] and Yahweh answered him, "Make a fiery serpent and put it on a standard. If anyone is bitten and looks at it, he shall live." So Moses fashioned a bronze serpent which he put on a standard, and if anyone was bitten by a serpent, he looked at the bronze serpent and lived.

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations!

Well, again...I know I'm jumping in the middle here...but oh well! I'll look for more scripture and things to help!

Jesus et Maria, Amos Vos, Salvate Animas
Brandon V.

[qfnol31]

I just like the Eastern view that they're a window to Heaven....