Apophatic or Kataphatic Spousal Spirituality

[God's Beloved]

Hello!

It's a long time I haven't posted here, although visiting sometimes.  Consecrated life has seen many changes and new forms over the centuries.  Was wondering whether women who have a spousal spirituality, tend to be more apophatic or kataphatic?  Any reflections? 

[Gabriela]

My, aren't we getting specific now... 

[God's Beloved]

Well, Gabriela, the purpose of raising this question is not to get specific, but to understand the nuances, the various combinations of both the spiritual approaches, gender related preferences, etc.

[NadaTeTurbe]

Can you explain what does "apophatic" and "kataphatic" mean ? Because the first thing that comes to my mind is : "triple word score"

[God's Beloved]

Nada Te Turbe, what I have in mind is the hope of the Beatific vision in Spousal spirituality.  The understanding of the vision itself has many nuances.  Some say we cannot see God, others say we can see God in Christ, and still others have many other explanations.

[Gabriela]

54 minutes ago, God's Beloved said:

Nada Te Turbe, what I have in mind is the hope of the Beatific vision in Spousal spirituality.  The understanding of the vision itself has many nuances.  Some say we cannot see God, others say we can see God in Christ, and still others have many other explanations.

I'm not sure how you understand that to mean "apophatic" or "kataphatic". I've never heard either of those terms used to refer to how a person "is". They are most commonly used to describe types of prayer, although I understand one can also use them to distinguish theologies.

@NadaTeTurbe: Apophatic prayer is prayer that has no "content", i.e., that tries to "empty the mind" or receive from God without being active, if you will. Contemplative prayer is commonly apophatic, as is meditation in the Oriental tradition. Kataphatic prayer, on the other hand, is prayer with "content", i.e., that uses words or images or whatnot to communicate with God or express oneself to Him. Ignatian imaginative prayer is kataphatic. Does that make sense?

Edited September 1, 2016 by Gabriela

[Sister Leticia]

I'm not sure I understand the question, except that I do know what the terminology means. So, for your benefit @NadaTeTurbe, here's your triple word score demystified in broad brush strokes: -

“Kataphatic” prayer has content: it uses words, images, symbols, ideas - eg Ignatian imaginative prayer, Lectio Divina, praying by reflecting on the meaning in an image.

“Apophatic” prayer has no content: it means emptying the mind of words and ideas and simply resting in the presence of God - eg centring prayer. It's what The Cloud of Unknowing describes.

However, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Some people do find themselves strongly called to one way of prayer, and it's what nourishes and sustains them for decades. They might manage to "dip into" another way - eg if they're at a day of prayer where the group is led in a guided meditation, or they're making a retreat and their director suggests praying a particular way. It might, however, feel unnatural, or they adapt the technique to whatever is most helpful for them.

Many people who initially learn and are nourished by kataphatic methods do find themselves eventually feeling called to a quieter, simpler way of prayer. This might become their only way of praying, or they might blend the two, maybe doing 20 or 30 minutes of centring prayer each day as well as using more active methods.

There are various learned articles about whether certain personalities are more predisposed to this or that way of prayer, or more or less likely to have spiritual experiences, but it's largely speculation. Really, it's all part of the rich tapestry of the mystery of how God reveals himself and communicates with each one of us.

[Gabriela]

I think what the OP is asking is whether women whose spirituality is distinctly spousal tend more toward kataphatic or apophatic prayer. I can't see why there would be a correlation, though, unless one wants to argue that spousal spirituality is uniquely receptive, and so such women incline more towards apophatic (receptive) prayer. But that sounds like a stretch to me.

Then again, if the OP is asking about kataphatic/apophatic theologies, then I have no idea.

[Sister Leticia]

9 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

I think what the OP is asking is whether women whose spirituality is distinctly spousal tend more toward kataphatic or apophatic prayer. I can't see why there would be a correlation, though, unless one wants to argue that spousal spirituality is uniquely receptive, and so such women incline more towards apophatic (receptive) prayer. But that sounds like a stretch to me.

Then again, if the OP is asking about kataphatic/apophatic theologies, then I have no idea.

Or one could argue that kataphatic prayer is more centred on imagery and symbolism, whereas in apophatic prayer one simply "is" and God "is" and there are no images or ideas, simply God - so the kataphatics are more likely to have it. Or one could argue a dozen other things, and each one might be true for a few people but not in such a way that there could be any definitive conclusions. Each path in prayer is unique, and even when people practice the same forms, they do so in different ways and have different insights and experiences - and that's the beauty of it.

[Gabriela]

2 hours ago, Sister Leticia said:

Or one could argue that kataphatic prayer is more centred on imagery and symbolism, whereas in apophatic prayer one simply "is" and God "is" and there are no images or ideas, simply God - so the kataphatics are more likely to have it. Or one could argue a dozen other things, and each one might be true for a few people but not in such a way that there could be any definitive conclusions. Each path in prayer is unique, and even when people practice the same forms, they do so in different ways and have different insights and experiences - and that's the beauty of it.

Yeah, that's why I'm hesitant to say people with certain spiritualities are likely to pray in certain ways. From what I know of prayer research, proclivities to pray in certain ways correlate with age and development in the spiritual life, not with particular spiritualities.

[God's Beloved]

 

1 hour ago, Gabriela said:

Yeah, that's why I'm hesitant to say people with certain spiritualities are likely to pray in certain ways. From what I know of prayer research, proclivities to pray in certain ways correlate with age and development in the spiritual life, not with particular spiritualities.

Books on psycho-spiritual analysis do seem to correlate preferences in the way of praying, with age and developmental stages.  We could add cultural influences on prayer life.  i have noticed different tendencies in the East and West.  There are some writings based on gender too.

[God's Beloved]

Trying to remember consecrated women who had a spousal spirituality.  Besides the carmelite saints, could anyone name a few?

[Gabriela]

21 hours ago, God's Beloved said:

Trying to remember consecrated women who had a spousal spirituality.  Besides the carmelite saints, could anyone name a few?

Sponsa Christi. And probably the Poor Clares, considering they take vows in a wedding dress. Any order that allows the rite of the consecration of virgins to be taken together with vows, really... 

[God's Beloved]

Trying to fine-tune my thoughts... 

By Spousal spirituality, I'm not referring to the mystical marriages described in various colors and emotions, in the lives of consecrated women /saints.   Am thinking of the Spousal spirituality (in their consecrated living) in the daily grind.  How did they live the relationship between Jesus Christ and themselves, as spouses?  Was the Risen Lord sought as a companion in the "here-and-now" or there was a waiting /longing to meet Him in the "home-in-heaven" and seeing Him face-to-face in the Beatific vision?  Of course, both aspects could be present in the same person, at the same or different phases of the spiritual journey, but which was predominant?

Elizabeth of the Trinity seemed to have experienced "heaven-on-earth"--the Trinity within.  I haven't read her writings since long time, or with the key of "Spousal spirituality in the daily grind".  I think I will go back to the lives of some of these writers... Teresa of Avila, Little flower, St. Clare, Virgin-martyrs...  any others you may suggest.

I may not come across as clear at this point in the conversation, but I'm looking for some responses which will help me articulate what exactly I'm wondering.

[God's Beloved]

Reading about St. Clare's unique way of living her Spousal relationship with Christ  ( https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2CLARE.HTM )

"Clare's gaze remained fixed on the Son of God to the end, in ceaseless contemplation of his mysteries. Hers was the loving gaze of the spouse, filled with the desire of an evermore complete sharing. She was immersed particularly in the meditation of the Passion, contemplating the mystery of Christ, who from the heights of the Cross called her and drew her [to him] .......... she urged: 'Let yourself be inflamed more strongly with the fervour of charity!... And sigh... in the great desire of your heart... may you cry out: Draw me after you... O Heavenly Spouse!' (Testament of St Clare of Assisi, 27, 29-32)."

"....May the presence of your monasteries entirely devoted to the contemplative life be also today a "memory of the Church's spousal love" (Verbi Sponsa, 1), filled with the consuming desire of the Spirit that incessantly implores the coming of Christ the Spouse (cf. Rev. 22:17).

Given the need for a renewed commitment to holiness, St Clare offers at the same time an example of that teaching of holiness that, nourished by incessant prayer, leads to becoming contemplatives of the Face of God..."

Reading the above, it seems St. Clare had a more kataphatic (via affirmativa) approach or spirituality.  I don't remember her writings showing an apophatic (via negativa) dimension.  Maybe Clarists could share if she wrote about it.

 

[miserere]

St. Clare's spirituality is definitely more kataphatic, according to the definitions above.  I was in a PCC monastery for a year and since leaving have also tried to understand her spirituality better.  For me, at least, the core of her spirituality seems spousal - she is passionately in love with Christ, and from there comes the love of poverty, for that is what Christ chose.  One lives in poverty out of love for the Divine Spouse, and also looks forward to the heavenly reward and riches of Christ.  So in daily life, one would unite Holy Poverty, work, penance, etc. to the Poor Crucified in a spirit of spousal love.  

St. Clare's letters to Bl. (St.?) Agnes of Prague are an excellent source of her spousal spirituality.  You can find them, as well as many more of her writings and writings of St. Francis and St. Colette, at http://www.poorclarestmd.org - just click on the menu icon in the upper right.

[God's Beloved]

47 minutes ago, miserere said:

St. Clare's spirituality is definitely more kataphatic, according to the definitions above.  I was in a PCC monastery for a year and since leaving have also tried to understand her spirituality better.  For me, at least, the core of her spirituality seems spousal - she is passionately in love with Christ, and from there comes the love of poverty, for that is what Christ chose.  One lives in poverty out of love for the Divine Spouse, and also looks forward to the heavenly reward and riches of Christ.  So in daily life, one would unite Holy Poverty, work, penance, etc. to the Poor Crucified in a spirit of spousal love.  

St. Clare's letters to Bl. (St.?) Agnes of Prague are an excellent source of her spousal spirituality.  You can find them, as well as many more of her writings and writings of St. Francis and St. Colette, at http://www.poorclarestmd.org - just click on the menu icon in the upper right.

Thank you very much Miserere!  i visited the site.  Clare's almost poetic words to Agnes,have often made me reflect deeper on the gift of virginity in consecrated life--

" When you have loved Him, you shall be chaste;
when you have touched Him, you shall become pure;
when you have accepted Him, you shall be a virgin. "

Virginity for her seems not a denial of something, but clearly an acceptance by Someone (which again leans towards a kataphatic approach). And Clare's unique way was to further live this spousal love by imitating the poverty of Jesus on the Cross: stripped,humiliated and emptied ...