Father-Mother God

[Quasar]

I felt I should investigate some active communities, so I pulled up the page for the sisters who ran my  elementary school.  I noticed they started a new house in Africa and they thanked "Father-Mother God" as well as supporters, etc. Is this a cause for concern about their orthodoxy or is this a part of Catholic teaching?  The sisters were very kind and loving to us as students and I have good memories of them.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Quasar

[Luigi]

Theological analysis indicates that God the Father has no gender; neither does the Holy Spirit; only Jesus has gender. 

Various people and groups of people have gone through all sorts of linguistic contortions to avoid saying the words "Father" and "Son" when referring to God. I"ve heard "God the Creator," "God the Offspring," "Jesus the Offspring," and all sorts of other terms. 

I think that, in liturgical prayers, we're all supposed to stick to the approved translations, which include mention of Father and Son. But in announcements, or prayers composed for special events, and so forth, there might be more leeway. 

Whether this should be a cause for concern is for your to decide. 

[Quasar]

8 minutes ago, Luigi said:

Theological analysis indicates that God the Father has no gender; neither does the Holy Spirit; only Jesus has gender. 

Various people and groups of people have gone through all sorts of linguistic contortions to avoid saying the words "Father" and "Son" when referring to God. I"ve heard "God the Creator," "God the Offspring," "Jesus the Offspring," and all sorts of other terms. 

Very interesting, Luigi!  Thanks for your input.

[Sister Leticia]

God, being God, isn't limited to a specific gender, or to *only* being any of the attributes and images we have. God is Love, and also Truth, Father, Judge, Creator, Protector, Provider etc. I suppose the only word which can capture something of the utter God-ness of God is God!

That said, though, images of God as mother have been around for many centuries. Julian of Norwich, the great mediaeval mystic, famously received an insight in her Revelations of Divine Love, of God as Mother. Nobody accused her of heresy - in fact, she was greatly respected and people travelled long distances to consult her (as a forerunner of spiritual direction, many anchoresses and hermits would be asked for spiritual advice). Here is the extract - which I found on the Vatican website!

http://www.vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010807_giuliana-norwich_en.html

So don't worry about your sisters

[Sponsa-Christi]

Actually, I would say that how problematic referring to "Father-Mother God" is depends on the context. If it's a one-off mention that was meant to pick up on some of the scriptural imagery (or as a reference to later, approved mystics who used similar imagery) that probably wouldn't be anything to worry about.

But, referring to God as "mother" in other contexts can be doctrinally problematic. One example I can think of is if something like "God the Father-Mother" was used as part of a baptismal formula, that might invalidate the baptism! In some situations, referring to God as "mother" could also point to some heterodox ideas about our Catholic theology of revelation.

[Nunsuch]

At least two recent Popes have referred to God's love being like a mother's love: http://www.lastampa.it/2013/06/10/vaticaninsider/eng/the-vatican/the-francisjohn-paul-i-connection-gods-love-is-like-a-mothers-love-z45KrCnBpwCR1RvekjOxFP/pagina.html

I also think there is a difference between referring to a genderless (or encompassing of all) God and a genderless Jesus, who was clearly incarnate as a male.

[Makarioi]

Interesting.  I've never heard of God being being called anything but Father (Father, Son, Spirit).   My SDA friends start prayers with 'Father God'.  That struck me as I never heard it put that way either.  

[Guest]

Wondering out loud: Isn't a balanced personality something of an element of both gender personalities?  That is for human beings of course, while God is so totally Other from human, we cannot even imagine what, impossible.  I do personally hold that Jesus in teaching us to address God as "Our Father" was telling us something very important indeed.  What exactly, I wouldn't know in theological even psychological terms.  Perhaps we might need to understand the male and the role of father in human terms even more than we do now to get something of a grasp on what Jesus is telling us about God, The Blessed Trinity and the male element.  I am more than happy personally to think of God as simply "Our Father" and as my Father.  It is a very happy image for me. My Dad was a very special sort of human being, father and Catholic and so I have a huge and happy concept of "Father".

Certainly, Jesus has taught us to address God as "Our Father" and Jesus is Son and incarnates as male.  What that means in theological terms is quite beyond me and my level of knowledge.   I must admit though expressions of God as father-mother do tell me that God is both provider and nurturer but I have that image without the expression.  If Jesus teaches us "Father" then that's good enough for me.

[Spem in alium]

Even the Scriptures refer to God as maternal, or as loving as a mother does. I think it is okay to call God in this way if that is how a person understands their relationship with God.

[CountrySteve937]

It seems problematic to me. Though Holy Scripture uses maternal terms (in Isaiah for instance) to describe  an aspect of God, it does not use the title "Mother" for Him anywhere. God has revealed Himself as "Father" http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/NOTMOTHR.HTM

[Nunsuch]

1 hour ago, CountrySteve21 said:

It seems problematic to me. Though Holy Scripture uses maternal terms (in Isaiah for instance) to describe  an aspect of God, it does not use the title "Mother" for Him anywhere. God has revealed Himself as "Father" http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/NOTMOTHR.HTM

Well, obviously, the use of "Mother" or maternal imagery isn't mandatory. But, for many people (including, apparently, at least two popes), this approach is helpful and spiritually nurturing. It is for me, and for many of my friends, as well. 

[beatitude]

There is a long precedent for using feminine imagery for God, including in the Bible itself - not only is divine wisdom personified as female in the deuterocanonical books, but the book of Isaiah uses explicitly maternal imagery, describing God as a mother carrying her children on her knee and suckling them at her breast. We should be unafraid to use it in our personal prayer. I think a lot of people get uneasy over the idea just because they aren't used to it, rather than because there's something wrong with it. That discomfort can be a useful reminder that God is greater than our minds can grasp.

For me the problem comes when people avoid using any pronouns at all, or they introduce hyphens like in 'Father-Mother' as though they're trying to achieve perfect balance on a seesaw. Then I feel as if they are watering down the relational and personal aspect of prayer. This may not be their intention, but it's just how it feels to me. And of course, I agree with Sponsa-Christi when it comes to liturgical prayer - we have specific prayers for use in baptism for a reason.

[katherineH]

In regards to your discernment with the community, I think it's important to ask how do *you* feel about them using the designation Father-Mother? Since it is explicitly mentioned on their website, there is a good chance it is it used in their prayer life and is integrated into their constitutions.  Do you feel comfortable enough with it that you could integrate it into your regular prayer life? 

 

I went on a discernment retreat with a community that did the opposite - they removed any gendered designation of God. Their version of the glory be was "glory to the Creator, the Word Incarnate, and the Holy Spirit." They also avoided referring to God with male pronouns.  This just doesn't jive with my spiritual and prayer lives, so I knew it was a closed door for me.  It's obviously important to test the doctrinal soundness, but also think about how it resonates with you and how God has made you.  Is it a posture towards God that you could take on for the rest of your life? It's also a good question to ask while discerning a charism. 

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by katherineH

[Spem in alium]

4 hours ago, beatitude said:

There is a long precedent for using feminine imagery for God, including in the Bible itself - not only is divine wisdom personified as female in the deuterocanonical books, but the book of Isaiah uses explicitly maternal imagery, describing God as a mother carrying her children on her knee and suckling them at her breast. We should be unafraid to use it in our personal prayer. I think a lot of people get uneasy over the idea just because they aren't used to it, rather than because there's something wrong with it. That discomfort can be a useful reminder that God is greater than our minds can grasp.

For me the problem comes when people avoid using any pronouns at all, or they introduce hyphens like in 'Father-Mother' as though they're trying to achieve perfect balance on a seesaw. Then I feel as if they are watering down the relational and personal aspect of prayer. This may not be their intention, but it's just how it feels to me. And of course, I agree with Sponsa-Christi when it comes to liturgical prayer - we have specific prayers for use in baptism for a reason.

I was awarded a Bible when I graduated high school. It's a very nice one, but in an effort to be "gender inclusive" "brothers" and "men" become "brethren" and "men and women" respectively, while no pronouns are used for God at all. I later learned this translation of the Bible is not used in liturgy for that reason.

[Antigonos]

I don't know Greek, but Hebrew, as with many other languages, doesn't have a neuter gender. We "anglos" may think inanimate objects like a chair or a necktie is "it", but in Hebrew the former is masculine and the latter is feminine [!]  A woman, or groups of women, exclusively, will take the female pronouns, but add even one man to the group, and it becomes necessary to use the male "we" or "they".  Nouns are either masculine or feminine.  Verb forms follow the noun or pronoun.  Therefore, in translation, the normal form becomes masculine because the various names and titles of God are in the masculine.  That said, the common assumption is that God is genderless.

[Gabriela]

On 9/13/2016 at 2:29 AM, Antigonos said:

the various names and titles of God are in the masculine.

לא כולם: השכינה. 

[beatitude]

4 hours ago, Gabriela said:

לא כולם: השכינה. 

I was thinking of that, but perhaps Antigonos was referring just to the titles that appear in Tanakh? I think Shekinah appears mainly in Talmud.

[Antigonos]

2 hours ago, beatitude said:

I was thinking of that, but perhaps Antigonos was referring just to the titles that appear in Tanakh? I think Shekinah appears mainly in Talmud.

The Shechina or "radiance" of God is more an adjectival quality than a title or name.  One does not invoke the Shechina in prayer.  There are quite a few of these qualities or attributes, some masculine and some feminine, as for example "דין", "din" (judgement), or רחמנות "rachmanut" (mercy).  They are words which describe God, not names.  If one wished, one could (and indeed, one does) invoke "El Rachum" (Merciful God). ריבונו של עולם, "Ribono shel Olam", or "Master of the Universe", would be another title used in prayer.

A subtle difference.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Antigonos

[Jack4]

Quote

CCC 370 In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.

________________________________________________

2) http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20080201_validity-baptism_en.html 

 

[Gabriela]

4 hours ago, Antigonos said:

The Shechina or "radiance" of God is more an adjectival quality than a title or name.  One does not invoke the Shechina in prayer.  There are quite a few of these qualities or attributes, some masculine and some feminine, as for example "דין", "din" (judgement), or רחמנות "rachmanut" (mercy).  They are words which describe God, not names.  If one wished, one could (and indeed, one does) invoke "El Rachum" (Merciful God). ריבונו של עולם, "Ribono shel Olam", or "Master of the Universe", would be another title used in prayer.

A subtle difference.

I was taught by Chabad and they said that "the Shechinah" rests between a husband and wife when they're married, when they're intimate, etc. The "Shechinah" is simply God present in the world, like the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure the title/quality distinction matters much for the masculine/feminine argument, but in any case you're right that the large majority of titles/qualities are masculine, so maybe it doesn't matter!