Rap Music

[p0lar_bear]

For those who do agree with this article--

Can you provide any Magisterial statements to support your view?

[jmjtina]

Who says what is good and what is "acceptable" when it comes to music? Of couse the music of subject, rap, and hip-hop is never to be played at mass. NO arguement here.

But, Who is to say it is "just noise" ? Who defines this? The "Western Society"? Personally the lyrics and the beats go hand in hand. And as a youth minister, I know for a fact those kids know all the lyrics of the songs they listen too. That is why it is important to know what they listen to and what they like. It is awesome when creativity is encouraged and allowed, (pots and pans....STOMP) rather restricting it to a certain norm, even thier culture present in the music. Morality in music is lacking, and that is what many are trying to change.

I had read the article and found some problems with it. Overall, it is good and I do agree with the overall "whole picture". But what Mr. Peters didn't talk about was the lyrics. He did say that purpose played a major role. But as a grad student as well, I think we can agree that there is a correlation, but no proof of direct cause of action. I would like to see documentation of those two stores. "In the same location, etc?" "Exactly the same?" Obviously the shoppers weren't in the same social economic status or one wouldn't be at risk for jail time for robbery. He doesn't describe nor provide documentation to obviously another's research. If it is his own observations, two music stores is hardly valid or reliable. And what exactly did he observe watching those children? Were they his family? Children at the rock store? What setting? I know it's not a dissertation or something, but it was directed as if it would answer questions when even he states,

[quote]Another possible component of music is the lyrics to a sung song. Since my thesis is primarily dealing with music itself and not words I have decided to leave the topic of whether words can be moral or immoral alone. In passing though, I believe the words of a song play a [b]great part in determining its morality [/b]and in how it affects the listener. For who can deny that words affect us since they convey the concepts and ideas of one person to another.[/quote]


And yet research shows us there is a [i]correlation[/i] to behavior in regards to music, it also points out that many other [b]external factors [/b]contribute to the actions of the ppl who listen to music. To make this paper brilliant would need more than just Plato and Aristotle references and two observations. His documentation needs to be more detailed.

The bottom line for me, what is the intent/purpose of the music? What are the lyrics and the melody and how do they effect it's listeners? How does the lyrics with Catholic/Christian theme differ from that of immoral lyrics that promote promiscuity, drugs, violence and abuse and it's effects on the listeners? Now that would be one heck of a research....... :ph34r:

dang, it's late, I need to finish my research for school. :sleep:

[IcePrincessKRS]

I don't really have time to hit on any of the arguments made since I last posted but I did want to say, about children banging on pots and pans...

It may be "dis-edifying" to you as an adult, but that is a very important developmental stage for small children, HOW can you claim that its "dis-edifying" for them? It may drive me bonkers but at least I know my kid is showing signs that she is developing normally. Yes, for the greater purpose of this thread we mean edifying as "spiritual growth" but the term also includes "intellectual and moral growth/improvement" in its definition. Children recognize certain sounds as music. Adrienne loves music, she dances and bounces when she hears songs she likes. Last night I was sewing and she started to dance to the hum of the machine! Doctors actually recommend that you give children pots and spoons (or some other "drum equivalent") to bang on. While you may find it personally dis-edifying the same label doesn't apply for small children.

Anyhow, thats my little tirade for the moment.

[dUSt]

I say... If songs talking about the Eucharist, confession, Sacredness and neccessity of reverence in the Mass, our Holy Mother Mary, etc are dis-edifying to you, simply because of a bassline, then don't listen to it.

There are many people who find it extremely edifying though. In fact, I often find myself listening to Miko's "The Struggle" on my way to confession, and it helps clear my mind of all the distractions around me--allowing me to focus on my sins and reasons for going to confession.

I also find Gregorian Chant to be an extremely powerful form of prayer and meditation, but it requires silence and calmness. It's hard to listen to it effectively while in a car on a busy downtown street, or fighting traffic. It is in these moments in which alternate forms of edifying music are more effective for me, like Catholic hip-hop--where the nature of the music will "fit" and effectively conquer the chaos of the world around me at that particular time, in that particular environment.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jun 29 2004, 01:21 PM']
It may be "dis-edifying" to you as an adult, but that is a very important developmental stage for small children, HOW can you claim that its "dis-edifying" for them? It may drive me bonkers but at least I know my kid is showing signs that she is developing normally. Yes, for the greater purpose of this thread we mean edifying as "spiritual growth" but the term also includes "intellectual and moral growth/improvement" in its definition. Children recognize certain sounds as music. Adrienne loves music, she dances and bounces when she hears songs she likes. Last night I was sewing and she started to dance to the hum of the machine! Doctors actually recommend that you give children pots and spoons (or some other "drum equivalent") to bang on. While you may find it personally dis-edifying the same label doesn't apply for small children.

Anyhow, thats my little tirade for the moment. [/quote]
I think you need to relax and re-read my post. I specifically said that it was NOT "dis-edifying" for them, but it does create a general state of chaos with them and everyone else.

You flew off the handle there and totally missed the point of my post. Perhaps your daughter was beating on pots while you were trying to read.

[jmjtina]

[quote]While technically I would not say that it is "dis-edifying" for them, as they have not yet reached the age of reason, it sure as hell pushes everyone else to the limit. [/quote]

I think your reasoning for it not being "dis-edifying" is that they have not reached the age of reason, right? Therefore if they were say 15 and picked up drums then it would be "dis-edifying"? And katie's right. It is a form of cognitive growth. Creating a general chaos? My father can read in the living room with 6 kids around fighting, yelling, singing, etc. (Katie's mom can vouch for more) and not hear a THING. It's halirious.

Katie didn't fly off the handle. I've seen her fly more than that.

[dUSt]

I think trying to argue that a child banging on pots discourages spiritual growth is ridiculous.

[BeenaBobba]

Hi amarkich,

You know, I've been riled up listening to classical music before. Some classical music can "pump me up" as well. Any type of music can elicit an emotional response.

God bless,

Jen

[BeenaBobba]

For the opponents of rap music: I don't find your arguments to be very empirically sound. People here are saying that Catholic rap is edifying. They are going by their own experiences, and you're dissing them on the basis of your own tastes. If they say it's edifying, then you have to admit that it's edifying to some degree or another to some people. If you refuse to admit that, you're basically telling them that they do not know their own feelings, and that you know them better than they know themselves, which would be absurd.

God bless,

Jen

[BeenaBobba]

Another thing: If a child banging on pots and pans is part of normal, healthy development, how can that be a spiritually bad thing? True development, by its very nature, cannot be at odds with spirituality.

God bless,

Jen

[Guest JeffCR07]

Amarkich, I would like to respond if I may:

Your basic premise is that there are two relevant aspects to consider when judging the worth of a particular musical piece. The first is "lyrics" while the second is "musicality." "Lyrics" refers to the verbal message accompanying the music. "Musicality" refers to skill with which the notes of a piece are arranged in order to invoke particular emotions.

You argue that the two can be analyzed seperately and have their individual value appraised aside from the influence that the other has.

I agree.

It is clear that lyrics can either be good or bad, and the determination of this is relatively easy, so you proceed to the more difficult task: addressing the issue of musicality.

Like you, I agree that, because the arrangement of notes in certain ways can evoke certain emotions, sheer musicality, entirely apart from lyrics, can have a positive or negative affect on one's spirituality.

For anyone who disagrees with me, I will use an example from Music Theory: The Laconic Mode. The Laconic Mode is a series of notes in which each successive note is an equal degree of dissonance apart from the note that preceeded it. It was banned from Church music for a long time. Why? - It just sounds evil. Anyone who doubts me, feel free to listen to it, or to any song that is played within it.

However, here is where Amarkich and I part ways, for it is my opinion that even something like the laconic mode can be used tastefully.

If you are listening to a piece of music that has multiple movements (one without lyrics, I might add) the music itself is used to tell a story. If one is trying to tell the story of, say, Christ's temptation in the Desert and his subsequent fidelity to God and rebuke of Satan, it would not only be "ok" to use the laconic mode, but even advisable.

When it starts out, I can imagine the music to be slow & somber - Christ is fasting. Suddenly it speeds up and gets more excited - the devil has appeared.
The music changes for each temptation, getting louded and louder as Lucifer ups the ante.
Then he asks Christ to worship him - cacaphony, chaos, evil: the laconic mode.
Abruptly it stops. Christ has repulsed the Devil and submitted to God
The music becomes light and airy - the angels minister to Christ

Even music that is, in and of itself, "evil" can be used to magnify the positive affect that music can have.

"But Jeff, what about things like Rock and Rap: THEY don't work in movements like classical music!"

Thats right, they don't. But now we get into a question of how to define things like Rock, Rap, Hip-Hop, etc. Rock first, then Rap and Hip-Hop:

Rock: Most of what has been said with regards to Rock so far is incorrect. Not all rock is "electrifying." Not all rock is "loud." etc. There are many types of rock, so let us first define it.

Really what we are talking about is an instrumental arrangement. For rock music, it consists of guitar(s), bass, drum, vocals, and sometimes piano and other instruments, but those first four are the key.

Each of those instruments is capable of playing "good" music (that is, good for spirituality) and "bad" music (that is, bad for spirituality). Being that no instrument is "evil" in and of itself.

So Jeff, can Rock music ever be good? Yes, it can, listen to Eric Clapton's "Tears in Heaven." It is tremendously sad, uses all of the correct instruments, is undeniably "Rock" (if you contest this, then your definition of Rock is not the same as mine, and is probably too narrow, thus denying some forms of rock music).

The song teaches the importance of living up to one's responsibilities, and of the unconditional love for a son that a father has. It is productive and formative for spiritual development. So, for Rock, it is all about how the instruments are used.

Rap/Hip-Hop:

The basic argument for this is much simpler than that of Rock, due to the nature of the music.

Rap and Hip-Hop have their origins in the old Call-and-Response tradition of the American Slaves. It has slowly developed over time, and, true to what people have said, the musicality (heavy bass beat, mellow guitar parts, and even DJ sampling) is entirely focused on the individual rapper/singer.

But for catholics, this deep focus on one thing (the rapper/singer in this case) should not be a new concept. We focus deeply on Relics, Icons, Crucifixes, Statues etc. In the same way, if the individual that hip-hop or rap music causes you to focus on helps to bring your attention to God, then the music itself is good.


Conclusion:

All this having been said, I would just like to summarize though please (especially amarkich) dont just read the summary.

Any given musical intrument can play a series of notes that either bring one closer to, or further from, God, whether directly or indirectly.

In the case of Rock music, it tends to be direct, with the focus on the music itself (typically the guitar(s)), so it all depends on how the instruments are being played and how the music is being arranged. When done well, Rock can produce positive, wonderful songs, like [u]Tears in Heaven[/u] by Eric Clapton.

In the case of Rap and some Hip-Hop, it is indirect, with the music trying to focus the listeners attention on the singer/rapper and what he/she is saying. If the message is good, then the music, which draws attention and focus, is also "good" just like an icon helps draw you to God through focus on a holy image.


Just one last note, then I'm done. I would very much like for any responses to try to avoid the "It sounds like noise," "It isn't music - just listen to that crashing and banging," "I can't focus on the lyrics because the music is too loud" type arguments. More than likely, it is an issue of being accustomed to certain things. Music evolves in a very concreate and real way and if it was truly "so loud" that it nullified lyrics, then lyrics would have eventually dropped from that type of music, even over the course of just 5 or 10 years. This is true because music is a type of communicative expression, like poetry, and demands not only to be concise, but to be acurate to what the artist is trying to portray.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Cure of Ars]

Here is the basic situation as I see it.

I agree that music moves people emotionally. I agree that emotions have to do with our character and they help us choose between vice a virtue. I also agree that hip hop music is aggressive music, even angry at times. But here is where the distinction comes in. There are times when it is totally appropriate to be aggressive and angry. The emotions are not bad but how the emotions are directed determine if they are good or evil, if it is righteous indignation or unrighteous. Being aggressive and angry helps us to act, to do something about the situation. As Catholic we should be angry about what is happening in the world. As Catholics we should be aggressive in promoting and defending the bride of Christ. Catholic Hip Hop can be used for the highest end.


I also agree that it probably not good to be angry all the time. And if hip hop is the only music you listen to then it’s probably not healthy. But anything in excess is not good.

Edited June 29, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Guest JeffCR07]

wow, I appologize, my post was very long, but please, if you care about the discussion, read it in its entirety Thanks!

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jun 29 2004, 02:16 PM'] I think you need to relax and re-read my post.  I specifically said that it was NOT "dis-edifying" for them, but it does create a general state of chaos with them and everyone else. 

You flew off the handle there and totally missed the point of my post.  Perhaps your daughter was beating on pots while you were trying to read.  [/quote]
Actually I was perfectly calm and Adrienne was napping while I typed that. I think you contradict yourself in your post which is why I made the points I did. You say its "comepletely dis-edifying" and then say its not dis-edifying for them. Make up your mind.

I don't find Adrienne's banging on things or even her occasional angry fit to be dis-edifying, if anything it brings me CLOSER to the Divine and strengthens my spirituality because instead of flying off the handle (I rarely fly off the handle, but if you'd like me to I can certainly demonstrate ) I say a quick prayer and calmly deal with the disturbance. If I feel I am getting worked up I let Matthew "do some parenting" while I relax for a few minutes specifically so I don't end up in a "dis-edifying" position.

Edited June 29, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jun 29 2004, 02:40 PM'] Another thing: If a child banging on pots and pans is part of normal, healthy development, how can that be a spiritually bad thing? True development, by its very nature, cannot be at odds with spirituality.

God bless,

Jen [/quote]
See, thats part of what I was thinking, how can your child's normal healthy development be dis-edifying for you? lol

[amarkich]

I have just finished reading most of the new posts. I apologize again that I am unable to respond right now. I just want you to know that I am keeping up with the thread. I have about 3 or 4 other threads where it is Phatmass vs. me (or one or two others) that I am trying to maintain my (or, in some cases, 'our') side of the argument, but it is 1:30 AM here, and I must get up early tomorrow. I hope to be able to respond tomorrow, but I have been busy lately. God bless all.

Adam

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jun 29 2004, 03:49 PM'] See, thats part of what I was thinking, how can your child's normal healthy development be dis-edifying for you? lol [/quote]
As I said, you completely misunderstood the point of my post (which was only half serious). You are making more of it than was intended. This thread is going on a pots and pans tangent.

I am the oldest of seven (my youngest sister being 7 years old) and now have two boys of my own. Trust me, I know all about clanging pots and pans and the apparent role of such activities in "Child development".

Now back on topic.

[p0lar_bear]

amarkich and popestpiusx,

how do your theories on the evils of hip-hop and rap music translate to other cultures. For example, African tribal music uses a lot of drums and may have tempos similar to what is used in rap music in America. Does that mean that African tribal music is inherently evil?

[Guest JeffCR07]

I'm still waiting for someone to reply to my post as well, lol. It took a long time to write...its depressing that no one is responding

[phatcatholic]

jeff,

i would like you to substantiate or elaborate upon your claim that the role of the beat in rap music is to bring attention to the lyrics or the rapper.

thanks,
phatcatholic