Priest Says Who to Vote For

[tinytherese]

As I mentioned on anothr thread, saturday at mass, our priest talked about the upcoming election and abortion for part of his homily. I wish that he would've dedicated his entire homily to the topic. After mass my dad confronted me twice so far on how disturbed he was that the Church would tell him who to vote for. He can't wrap his mind around how anyone can vote for Trump, the worst possible candidate.

Dad kept listing the bad traits of Trump as if I was naiive to them. It wouldn't surprise me if between now and the election dad will try to show me anti-Trump videos, especially with Bill Maher. Dad watches him on youtube as it is and turns the volume up high. It isn't because he's hard of hearing. Dad doesn't watch tv that loud. He and his side of the family are big time democrats. I can easily picture Thanksgiving and Christmas seeing them and having them try to start an arguement with me on politics. If that happens, I'll leave their presence.

I'm voting for McMullin. Dad thinks that it's a waste because it'll be either Trump or Hilary.

Mom agrees with dad. She said she read what the USCCB had to say and listened to Fr. Dave and Cardinal Dolan who say to make your own decision. I find it hard to believe that they would approve of any Catholic voting for Clinton. I know it's a long shot and we can debate on how effective it is, but Clinton and Trump aren't our only options. We have third parties and write-ins.

[Nihil Obstat]

Separation of Church and state is one of the most damaging falsehoods of the rise of liberalism.

[Amppax]

Speaking of priests who tell people who to vote for... http://www.patheos.com/blogs/propernomenclature/father-frank-live-on-facebook-using-the-dead-to-elect-trump-going-too-far/

WARNING, it's graphic. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Amppax
warning.

[dominicansoul]

I see Christ in that little baby...so, placing him on the altar is appropriate in my opinion.

 

Good for Father Frank.  I'm sure armies of little unborn souls will greet him at the gate of Heaven when he's called to Our Father in heaven...

[KnightofChrist]

20 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

I see Christ in that little baby...so, placing him on the altar is appropriate in my opinion.

 

Good for Father Frank.  I'm sure armies of little unborn souls will greet him at the gate of Heaven when he's called to Our Father in heaven...

And it's not new. 

There are plenty of examples of the dead on altars and altars even being made of the dead. I understand people not personally liking it but attacking Father the way that is done in the link is sad.

Edited November 7, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

More...

 

[Gabriela]

I'm not watching that. But I definitely agree with Shea that we need a new pro-life movement.

[Nihil Obstat]

I think y'all are in the wrong thread.

[KnightofChrist]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I think y'all are in the wrong thread.

Thread Hijacked, it's now a Shea has a new enemy to hate so Father Frank is basically super Hitler thread. 

[cappie]

Don't know but it has reached "down under" to Australia. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/scottericalt/after-sick-political-stunt-fr-pavones-faculties-should-be-suspended/

[Kateri89]

I don't know.  I think there may have been better ways for Fr. Pavone to get his point across.  He could've had a special Mass dedicated to all the lives lost to abortion, could've shown pictures of the carnage at some sort of rally (not appropriate for Mass), could've simply displayed an infant-sized closed casket to drive home his point.  That poor baby already had a funeral; I don't know if the body was exhumed or if the child never had a proper burial but that is a human being, not a political prop.  I truly believe that Fr. Pavone cares more about the lives of the unborn than about political parties and that his intention was out of a real desire to end abortion, but I think this was entirely inappropriate.  I would say the same thing if during the Holocaust, some priest managed to retrieve the body of a Jew and place the body on the altar and insist that people overthrow Hitler.

In a related topic, everybody please pray, go to adoration if possible tonight or tomorrow, and even fast for the best possible outcome in this election.  I think either way the election goes, the outcome is a guaranteed disappointment to put it lightly.  Let's just put it in God's hands, vote according to conscience, and then ask God to have mercy on us and help us fix our mistake.

[Amppax]

3 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I think y'all are in the wrong thread.

I was just riffing on the title, man. 

[Seven77]

24 minutes ago, Kateri89 said:

I don't know.  I think there may have been better ways for Fr. Pavone to get his point across.  He could've had a special Mass dedicated to all the lives lost to abortion, could've shown pictures of the carnage at some sort of rally (not appropriate for Mass), could've simply displayed an infant-sized closed casket to drive home his point.  That poor baby already had a funeral; I don't know if the body was exhumed or if the child never had a proper burial but that is a human being, not a political prop.  I truly believe that Fr. Pavone cares more about the lives of the unborn than about political parties and that his intention was out of a real desire to end abortion, but I think this was entirely inappropriate.  I would say the same thing if during the Holocaust, some priest managed to retrieve the body of a Jew and place the body on the altar and insist that people overthrow Hitler.

In a related topic, everybody please pray, go to adoration if possible tonight or tomorrow, and even fast for the best possible outcome in this election.  I think either way the election goes, the outcome is a guaranteed disappointment to put it lightly.  Let's just put it in God's hands, vote according to conscience, and then ask God to have mercy on us and help us fix our mistake.

1

This.

I've always appreciated Father's words and desires to help unborn babies, however, I do think  he can go to certain extremes such as this. Not all appropriate at the Holy Mass. And yes, it is not really treating the child with respect.

Also, I second  your suggestion to pray for the outcome of this election. Both Clinton and Trump are bad news. Accordingly, my parish will be having the opportunity for adoration.

I don't know if I made a mistake by voting for Maturen, in my blue state. But please God, have mercy on me and on us all.

[Spem in alium]

God bless America. We're uniting ourselves in prayer with you and for our world.

[KnightofChrist]

11 hours ago, Kateri89 said:

I don't know.  I think there may have been better ways for Fr. Pavone to get his point across.  He could've had a special Mass dedicated to all the lives lost to abortion, could've shown pictures of the carnage at some sort of rally (not appropriate for Mass), could've simply displayed an infant-sized closed casket to drive home his point.  That poor baby already had a funeral; I don't know if the body was exhumed or if the child never had a proper burial but that is a human being, not a political prop.  I truly believe that Fr. Pavone cares more about the lives of the unborn than about political parties and that his intention was out of a real desire to end abortion, but I think this was entirely inappropriate.  I would say the same thing if during the Holocaust, some priest managed to retrieve the body of a Jew and place the body on the altar and insist that people overthrow Hitler.

In a related topic, everybody please pray, go to adoration if possible tonight or tomorrow, and even fast for the best possible outcome in this election.  I think either way the election goes, the outcome is a guaranteed disappointment to put it lightly.  Let's just put it in God's hands, vote according to conscience, and then ask God to have mercy on us and help us fix our mistake.

The sight of our Blessed Lord hanging dead, blooded and naked on the altar of Calvary was a very similar stumbling block, or discomfit, outrage, etc  to those that viewed it at the time. And it is the same for many who see that same depiction in the Crucifixes that hang above (or should) every altar in the Catholic Church.  I cannot tell you how many times I have had to defend myself for wearing a Crucifix from those using the very same logic you and others are using to attack, yes attack all though it is weakly, Father Frank. "Isn't there a better way to show Jesus than that?" "Don't you think it's better to point out His Resurrection?" "Don't you think that is gruesome?"

As I have already shown, Church history shows that there is no problem whatsoever with the dead on the altar, under the altar or the dead being made into an altar. What the real problem here is simple, what Father did, that is actually so offensive is that he dared to show the naked, unveiled truth of child slaughter. This proves to me that if Abortion did not happen in hidden away places and instead happened in the streets, where we would have to see it, hear it, smell it we would all be a lot more outraged at the wickedness of it.

I hope and pray you and other rethink your attacks on Father.

11 hours ago, cappie said:

Don't know but it has reached "down under" to Australia. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/scottericalt/after-sick-political-stunt-fr-pavones-faculties-should-be-suspended/

Do you think the author of that article will be calling for the suspension of politicians that make the laws that allow child slaughter? Or has the author done so in the past? I kind of doubt it. What do you think Father? Would the author be consistent in their attack or contradictory?

[WhiteLily]

No matter the outcome, Jesus will always have the victory. Let us continue to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Whoever is elected into public office, let us continue to pray for them that they may grow deeper in love with Jesus and understand Truth on who He is and live their lives in accord to the Gospel.

[Amppax]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

The sight of our Blessed Lord hanging dead, blooded and naked on the altar of Calvary was a very similar stumbling block, or discomfit, outrage, etc  to those that viewed it at the time. And it is the same for many who see that same depiction in the Crucifixes that hang above (or should) every altar in the Catholic Church.  I cannot tell you how many times I have had to defend myself for wearing a Crucifix from those using the very same logic you and others are using to attack, yes attack all though it is weakly, Father Frank. "Isn't there a better way to show Jesus than that?" "Don't you think it's better to point out His Resurrection?" "Don't you think that is gruesome?"

As I have already shown, Church history shows that there is no problem whatsoever with the dead on the altar, under the altar or the dead being made into an altar. What the real problem here is simple, what Father did, that is actually so offensive is that he dared to show the naked, unveiled truth of child slaughter. This proves to me that if Abortion did not happen in hidden away places and instead happened in the streets, where we would have to see it, hear it, smell it we would all be a lot more outraged at the wickedness of it.

I hope and pray you and other rethink your attacks on Father.

No, you're wrong. According to just about every form of law (Divine, natural, canon, civil, etc). A good friend of mine who is a canon lawyer and theologian recently posted this, in response to similar defenses. 

Quote

 I realize it's easy to criticize based on feelings, so let me lay out precisely why this cannot be praiseworthy.

By canon law, it's a violation of the purpose of the altar and causes grave scandal. Many people cite 1239, of course, but leave out sect. 2, which says you can't USE an altar if someone (relics excluded) is buried under it. 1376 says profanation merits a just penalty. It is unlikely that Fr. Frank can plead canonical ignorance. 1399 sets the conditions for a penalty: "special gravity" (I think a worldwide broadcast certainly qualifies) and need to prevent or repair scandal. (Yup.)

Natural law dictates in every society that the dead are to be treated with respect, which is why, EVEN IF YOU BURY THEM AFTERWARDS (which is owed them by justice, you don't get to hold it up as mercy!) you don't get to reenact Weekend At Bernie's in a funeral home without being sued. 

Divine law specifies that the bodies of the dead are to be treated with reverence (hence no cremation without just cause) and according to the Rites of the Church - the reason this isn't explicitly mentioned in the Rites is that you'd have to be nuts to think it was ever a good idea.

One last thing: our respect for the dead is a sign of our respect for the dignity of the living. This is the opposite of pro-life. And disobedience is not heroic."

What Fr. Pavone did, plain and simple, is sacrilege. 

Quote

Do you think the author of that article will be calling for the suspension of politicians that make the laws that allow child slaughter? Or has the author done so in the past? I kind of doubt it. What do you think Father? Would the author be consistent in their attack or contradictory?

Yeah, actually, he has. 

[dominicansoul]

I think if concentration camps had been discovered earlier in WWII, the Allies would have had a more urgent need to fight the Nazis, and their motivation and morale would have been at a fever pitch to end the atrocities.

The public doesn't see these babies, except what they may see on placards and graphic billboards.  These real human babies are being disposed of in trashcans throughout the USA.  Father Pavone wanted to show his audience what was so important for him to be voting for the Republican Party.  He did that by introducing the audience to a victim of abortion.  This little baby's soul is already in the Glory of God the Father.  HE didn't mind being there.  In fact, I'm sure if it helps the unborn, this little baby was more than happy to help out Father Pavone's message...

Instead, we have Catholic outrage (I'm not surprised, I feel that too when I speak of the unborn, I get it worse from Catholics then from pro-aborts.  Heck, even Pope Francis told us to stop talking about them.  But I can't, I really really can't.  This is the terror above all other terrors, that we have allowed this murder and we make much more fuss about our HURT FEELINGS than we do about that little baby on the altar.  Do you see how damaged he is?  How brutally slain he was?)  I recall a certain Friar's body being placed on an altar on 9/11... nobody really complained about that then...

 

Saducees and Pharisees.  Father meant well.  Who could see that little baby and think of nothing more than the terrible holocaust this country allows?  I didn't think of Canon Law, rules, rubrics, etc.  I thought of that little baby.  

I think people are offended not so much of what he did, but more so of what he was calling us out for--- not doing all we can to stop Democrats and their bloody murdering political machine...if more priests and bishops were like Father Pavone, then maybe Catholics would actually start giving a beaver dam about abortion instead of putting it aside as a "non-issue" in elections...

 

[Amppax]

So a desire to be a faithful son or daughter of the Church means one is a Pharisee? 

[Nihil Obstat]

Yeah... I cannot back you up on this one, KoC. I would like to think Fr. Pavone had good intentions, and I do think something similar might have been done which would have been quite a bit more acceptable*, but the way it played out was, in my opinion, clearly tasteless, and apparently a serious violation of canon law. This is not an issue of obedience wherein there are some limited circumstances that justify disobedience for a greater good.

*For instance, if the child had been wrapped in a shroud and in a small casket in front of the altar, I think the same message would have been sent, but in a more respectful manner. Lacking that same rhetorical shock certainly, but that is pretty far down the list of priorities when we are considering it against canon law and sacrilege.

Additionally, I think incidents like this give liberal and modernist Catholics more reason to push abortion off to the side as 'one issue among many', and it gives the secular world more reason to paint the pro-life movement as one which is crass, hypocritical, and lacking in empathy. Then liberal Catholics use this to justify ignoring the social reign of Christ the King (which they want to do anyway and simply like having more excuses), and the secular world continues to marginalize the Church.