Dubia Submitted to the Holy Father

[Amppax]

On 1/14/2017 at 7:02 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Well couple points. Yes, documents are typically reviewed by experts in some capacity. That was done in this case, a great many concerns were offered and corrections proposed, and they were all ignored. So goes the somewhat-more-than-a-rumour at the moment. Second, it is not uncommon for papal documents to be partially or completely ghostwritten. For example, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was the primary consultant and wrote sections of the encyclical Fidei Donum. In the case of Amoris Laetitia it is widely suspected that Archbishop Victor Fernandez was a major ghostwriter. It would not surprise me if Cardinals Kasper and Schoenborn were also at least consulted at times. But regardless of its material authorship, in promulgating the document of course the Holy Father makes it his own in a formal manner. 

 

Even Crux, of all places, has published criticism of the Fernandez connection: https://cruxnow.com/commentary/2017/01/15/ethicist-says-ghostwriters-role-amoris-troubling/.

[Guest]

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/02/01/clarification-is-gravely-needed-international-priests-association-gives-support-to-dubia/

The Confraternities of Catholic Clergy, who represent around 1,000 priests in Britain, Ireland, Australia and the United States, said a clarification is “gravely needed to correct the misuse of the Apostolic Exhortation to undermine sacred Tradition”.

The statement, reproduced in full below, says that “the unity of the Church” and the “salvation of souls” are threatened by the widely divergent interpretations of the Pope’s apostolic exhortation, released last April. “We therefore thank the four eminent Cardinals who have recently submitted their dubia to the Holy See.”

 

[Nihil Obstat]

I did not want to make a separate thread for it, but I am very excited at the moment because there are renewed rumours that a canonical structure for the SSPX is imminent. (Again.) But this time we have his excellency Bishop Fellay saying the same, so I am - once again - allowing myself to be very hopeful. I will smoke a celebratory pipe when the structure is announced.

[Amppax]

45 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I did not want to make a separate thread for it, but I am very excited at the moment because there are renewed rumours that a canonical structure for the SSPX is imminent. (Again.) But this time we have his excellency Bishop Fellay saying the same, so I am - once again - allowing myself to be very hopeful. I will smoke a celebratory pipe when the structure is announced.

 

Can you pm me about the details? I'd be interested to read more, but I'm guessing some of the sources aren't exactly kosher around these parts. 

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, Amppax said:

Can you pm me about the details? I'd be interested to read more, but I'm guessing some of the sources aren't exactly kosher around these parts. 

Actually you can see the important stuff just via Rorate. Maybe not considered 'credible' around here, but at least links to it are allowed.  

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/01/ecclesia-dei-confirms-fellay-full.html

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/01/sspx-superior-general-fellay-agreement.html

[Nihil Obstat]

Reading deeper into the hearsay, the rumour is that the Society is already being treated as de facto regularized, and it was even communicated to them at the time of their last ordinations that the ordinations could proceed licitly without the local ordinary's permission. If this is the case, it is basically an amplification of the status quo over the last decade or so.

[Jack4]

 

Quote

Is a signing [of an agreement] close? "It is not a question of calendar," but of "full development of the dossier," the main players insist. Nevertheless, two symbolic dates are mentioned in Rome: July 7, 2017, tenth anniversary of Benedict XVI's motu proprio that reestablished the Mass according to the 1962 Missal, called the Latin Mass, as well as Extraordinary rite [sic] in the Catholic Church. Or May 13, 2017, centenary of the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal. Pope Francis will be, on the latter day, on a pilgrimage [to Fatima].

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/02/sspx-vatican-two-dates-are-mentioned-in.html

 

[Nihil Obstat]

This would also be, to my knowledge, the first time since the late 80s that specific dates have been mentioned, even if only in rumours.

[Amppax]

"that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21). 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Admittedly, I would prefer that it happen sooner. We have waited long enough. Melt the wax already and just seal the deal.

[Guest]

Is Pope Francis actually possibly, perhaps, might, could be doing something right? (tongue in cheek)

[Peace]

9 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Is Pope Francis actually possibly, perhaps, might, could be doing something right? (tongue in cheek)

To the extent that he agrees with me, yes, he would be right.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Peace said:

To the extent that he agrees with me, yes, he would be right.

 

Spot on!

[Nihil Obstat]

For nearly ten years I have argued that the regularization of the SSPX will be an act of justice, and the correction of a sub optimal and ultimately unnecessary state of tension. If Pope Francis is the one to carry out that act, then it is to his credit.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

For nearly ten years I have argued that the regularization of the SSPX will be an act of justice, and the correction of a sub optimal and ultimately unnecessary state of tension. If Pope Francis is the one to carry out that act, then it is to his credit.

Well, it apparently might happen this year for you, Nihil. Congrats on being gifted fruit to your efforts in all probability!  It is very obvious that Pope Francis is desperately looking for credit anywhere he can get it  (tongue in cheek again)

I really hope and am praying that the SSPX will be granted regularization - but probably I think for what would be in the minority of reasons, if that even  - although I do keep also focus and reflections on Pope Francis, Vicar of Christ on earth as his mind (inspiration of The Holy Spirit to our Holy Father) ticks over and revealed in various ways in all probability.  I posted when Pope Francis was first elected that I bet if PF decided to put his foot down, it would go right through the floor (of status quo).  Nice to be right sometimes, he sure is rocking the boat of status quo.......or has he sunk it already.

Edited February 3, 2017 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

 

Quote

 

1 Galatians Ch 1 12            "For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe's people, that there are rivalries among you. I mean that each of you is saying"............. (I belong to archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the SSPX)........... "I belong to ⁵ Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Kephas," or "I belong to Christ."

 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

In our day, we recognise (I thought) that those who belong to Christ are obedient to the Vicar of Christ on earth.  Ah well, Paul was successful in embracing us gentiles into The Church of Christ.  I do hope PF will be successful in embracing/regularizing the SSPX into The Church of Christ, for my own reasons watching Pope Francis - nothing infallible whatsoever.  I do recognise of course that PF while under the inspiration of The Holy Spirit re the Universal Church may or may not follow that inspiration culpably or inculpably.  As I (with all) have the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and responsibility and accountability for my own journey and it's duties etc, Pope Francis has the same for his journey and it's duties etc........and knows it.  Not a job to relish in my book!

Chess anyone?

[Nihil Obstat]

Do Dominicans belong to St. Dominic, and Franciscans to Francis? Or the FSSP to Frs. Berg and Saguto and Gerstle and Paul-Joseph? I believe that is an incredibly shallow objection to the Society.

[Peace]

3 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

For nearly ten years I have argued that the regularization of the SSPX will be an act of justice, and the correction of a sub optimal and ultimately unnecessary state of tension. If Pope Francis is the one to carry out that act, then it is to his credit.

Well I suppose there is something to be said for dialogue after all.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Do Dominicans belong to St. Dominic, and Franciscans to Francis? Or the FSSP to Frs. Berg and Saguto and Gerstle and Paul-Joseph? I believe that is an incredibly shallow objection to the Society.

Insofar as Dominicans and Franciscans Orders are loyal to their founders, Saints Dominic and Francis, who were loyal to The Church and all it means, yes, of course, they belong to The Church.  We pray it every Sunday (at least) in the creed "I believe in The Holy Catholic Church" of whom at this point Pope Francis is Vicar of Christ on earth.

45 minutes ago, Peace said:

Well I suppose there is something to be said for dialogue after all.

Spot on again. (1. take part in a conversation or discussion to resolve a problem).

 

[Nihil Obstat]

22 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Insofar as Dominicans and Franciscans Orders are loyal to their founders, Saints Dominic and Francis, who were loyal to The Church and all it means, yes, of course, they belong to The Church.  We pray it every Sunday (at least) in the creed "I believe in The Holy Catholic Church" of whom at this point Pope Francis is Vicar of Christ on earth.

 

The same goes for the Society, ultimately, albeit rather newer.