A New Analogy for the Trinity

[Luigi]

I heard of these things for the first time only about two weeks ago. Didn't take long for somebody to come up with the idea to use them as an analogy to explain the Trinity. This image is from the Benedictine monks at Marmion Abbey in northern Illinois.

[Jack4]

the shamrock analogy, it falters where it suggests that each Divine Person is a third of God. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Jack4

[DominicanHeart]

I saw it on Facebook. I think it's perfect 

[Jack4]

3 hours ago, Jack4 said:

Like the shamrock analogy, it falters where it suggests that each Divine Person is a third of God. 

<edit>

2 hours ago, DominicanHeart said:

I saw it on Facebook. I think it's perfect 

[Makarioi]

3 hours ago, Jack4 said:

the shamrock analogy, it falters where it suggests that each Divine Person is a third of God. 

I never thought of it or learned that each person is a third of God:  each person is God: God the Father, Son and Spirit.  

[Cam42]

The analogy is a heresy.  Just so you know.  It is called Partialism.  Each person of the Trinity is fully God.  There is no way to separate them and have God at the center.

In short....the heresy taught that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are components of the one God. This led them to believe that each of the persons of the Trinity is only part God, only becoming fully God when they come together.

This is what the fidget spinner analogy assumes.  Sorry, it doesn't work.

[Jack4]

5 minutes ago, Makarioi said:

I never thought of it or learned that each person is a third of God:  each person is God: God the Father, Son and Spirit.  

Each Person is God: God the Father, Son and Spirit. 

Therefore, to say that "each person is a third of God" is an error. 

I was bringing this up to show the problem with the fidget spinner analogy. 

IOW, what @Cam42 said. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

 

5 minutes ago, Cam42 said:

The analogy is a heresy.

But then, there are no proper analogies for the Trinity, are there?

[dairygirl4u2c]

people don't like to say it, but the trinity as is taught by mainstream Christianity is illogical. most like to call it a mystery instead. that is, the father is god, the son is god, but the father is not the son. the father is god, the son is god, but they are not the same yet there is only one god. all examples of why it's illogical.

[Luigi]

1 hour ago, Cam42 said:

The analogy is a heresy.  Just so you know.  It is called Partialism.  Each person of the Trinity is fully God.  There is no way to separate them and have God at the center.

In short....the heresy taught that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are components of the one God. This led them to believe that each of the persons of the Trinity is only part God, only becoming fully God when they come together.

This is what the fidget spinner analogy assumes.  Sorry, it doesn't work.

No analogy works perfectly. The thing I like about this one, though, is that the three lobes blend into one God - when you get your spinner spinning fast - instead of staying distinct as they do in the shamrock.

No, this analogy doesn't show the Spirit proceeding from the Father and Son. There are probably a lot of other features of the nature of God that no analogy can demonstrate - God is too big, too mysterious, too everything else.

But teachers, especially of young children, have to start somewhere. Young children can probably relate to this very basic analogy as an introduction to a mystery that none of us will ever fully understand.

[Era Might]

12 hours ago, Jack4 said:

the shamrock analogy, it falters where it suggests that each Divine Person is a third of God. 

But whatever that thing is, is a solid mass, correct? It has form, but it doesn't have parts. In the idea of  Trinity, can God be said to have form? There's the famous passage of St. Paul about Jesus, "though in the form of God, he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." I'm not sure what Greek idea is behind that word "form."

8 hours ago, dairygirl4u2c said:

people don't like to say it, but the trinity as is taught by mainstream Christianity is illogical. most like to call it a mystery instead. that is, the father is god, the son is god, but the father is not the son. the father is god, the son is god, but they are not the same yet there is only one god. all examples of why it's illogical.

For the Father to know himself is also to say he must be known, because knowledge of self implies an ability to see the self as a thing separate from the knower. In the idea of the Trinity, I think the Son is that separate person who knows the Father, he is not the Father, but he knows nothing excep the Father. And the Holy Spirit comes from that act of knowing and known, the Holy Spirit is the act itself. I guess, something like that.

[Jack4]

8 hours ago, dairygirl4u2c said:

people don't like to say it, but the trinity as is taught by mainstream Christianity is illogical. most like to call it a mystery instead. that is, the father is god, the son is god, but the father is not the son. the father is god, the son is god, but they are not the same yet there is only one god. all examples of why it's illogical.

Si comprehendis, non est Deus

The Trinity - like pretty much all of Church doctrine - is not "illogical":

1. The certitude of some truths can be established by reason alone (eg existence of God) 

2. The certitude of some truths cannot be established by reason alone* (eg Trinity)

3. No doctrine is contrary to truth. 

*Reason may be able to show that it is fitting, reason may be able to show the flaws in other models. It is the certitude that cannot be established by reason alone. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091998_fides-et-ratio.html

39 minutes ago, Era Might said:

But whatever that thing is, is a solid mass, correct? It has form, but it doesn't have parts. In the idea of  Trinity, can God be said to have form? There's the famous passage of St. Paul about Jesus, "though in the form of God, he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." I'm not sure what Greek idea is behind that word "form."

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

[CatherineM]

Y'all need to loosen your drawers a bit. 

[Cam42]

On 6/13/2017 at 9:09 PM, CatherineM said:

Y'all need to loosen your drawers a bit. 

Not when it comes to matters of dogma.  My drawers are not in a bunch.  They are perfectly situated.  

Thanks so much for your concern, but I will not simply "loosen" on matters of Faith.  This is a known heresy and it has been pointed out.  How is that being wound too tight?  You, as a Church Scholar should have recognized that heresy and come to our assistance.

[Luigi]

You don't have to use this analogy. It's just something I found on the Internet, on a Catholic site that I trust, and I shared it out of general interest. It's not a perfect analogy - duly noted. Anyone is free to disregard it.

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, Cam42 said:

My drawers are not in a bunch.  They are perfectly situated.  

Thanks so much for your concern, but I will not simply "loosen" on matters of Faith.  This is a known heresy and it has been pointed out.  How is that being wound too tight?

This is amply addressed by @Luigi in this way:

No analogy works perfectly.... But teachers, especially of young children, have to start somewhere. Young children can probably relate to this very basic analogy as an introduction to a mystery that none of us will ever fully understand.

On 6/14/2017 at 7:39 AM, CatherineM said:

Y'all need to loosen your drawers a bit. 

Is that addressed to me? I was responding to belief in the Trinity of God being labelled "illogical". 

[Cam42]

Yes, teachers have to start somewhere, but not with heresy.  How about with legitimate Church teaching on the Trinity.  There is a great book called the Baltimore Catechism no. 1 which deals with this...but so does no. 2, as well.

Just sayin'....

[Jubilate Deo]

You could use the analogy of water. Water can be a solid, a liquid, and a gas, but they're all water at their core, with three separate and unique states (ice, simply water in and of itself, and vapor).

There's also the concept of time. You have time itself with three states: past, present, and future. These are all unique, but also all have the 'substance' of time.

It is definitely tricky to explain the Trinity. Even typing this out, I had to avoid words like 'manifesting' or 'forms,' because that sounds like the modalist heresy, where there is the concept of one God who will manifest Himself in one of three ways instead of each person being both distinct and fully God.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Jubilate Deo

[Jack4]

9 hours ago, Jubilate Deo said:

You could use the analogy of water. Water can be a solid, a liquid, and a gas, but they're all water at their core, with three separate and unique states (ice, simply water in and of itself, and vapor).

There's also the concept of time. You have time itself with three states: past, present, and future. These are all unique, but also all have the 'substance' of time.

These analogies have their faults too. 

16 hours ago, Cam42 said:

Yes, teachers have to start somewhere, but not with heresy.  How about with legitimate Church teaching on the Trinity.

To me, it's unthinkable that small children be thought about "ousia" and "hypostatis".

[Makarioi]

I'm going to look at what the Catechism / Magisterium says as well as what our Faith Formation books for our children from Sadlier says.  I think we're trying to have a concrete scientific explanation for something that is one of the mysteries--not that it's mysterious, but accepted by faith.  We all know that if science can't explain it, then of course, it doesn't exist.....LOL.  Ben Watson, the Raven's Tight End was on TV this morning and coincidentally brought up the Trinity.  It was lovely to hear him speak about his faith. 

[Era Might]

16 hours ago, Jubilate Deo said:

It is definitely tricky to explain the Trinity. Even typing this out, I had to avoid words like 'manifesting' or 'forms,' because that sounds like the modalist heresy, where there is the concept of one God who will manifest Himself in one of three ways instead of each person being both distinct and fully God.

That's what I was asking above, can the Catholic God be said to have form? What does St. Paul mean by "form" in Philippians 2:5-8:

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

7 hours ago, Makarioi said:

Ben Watson, the Raven's Tight End was on TV this morning and coincidentally brought up the Trinity.  It was lovely to hear him speak about his faith. 

And where did Ben Watson start his career? You are correct sir, in New England.

How about this analogy for God: the Patriots have the greatest quarterback ever, greatest coach ever, greatest owner ever. However you slice it, the Patriots are the greatest, and so is God. Even St. Athanasius couldn't disagree.