And now Torches are symbols of Hatred

[Era Might]

I'm not an American because I salute the flag. If they took away my American citizenship, I would still be an American. Nobody gave me my citizenship, nobody tells me what it means to be a patriot. This land is my land, and I make of it what I want. Symbols are shorthand, ways of speaking, nothing more. Protest, too, is a symbol, an American tradition. Destroying symbols, too, is an American tradition. We have our kids read Thoreau in high school. Who made Thoreau an American? Thoreau went a step beyond Kaepernick. Thoreau refused to pay his taxes. He didn't merely refuse to salute a symbol of America, he refused to render unto Caesar, he refused to finance a government. That was not just a symbol, it was an act of war against the government, because the government cannot exist without public money. There is a time and place for positive symbols, but in the last century we've turned into a pathetic nation of nationalistic jingoism. Let the flag burn, and American will be the stronger for it.

Quote

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison. The proper place today, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. It is there that the fugitive slave, and the Mexican prisoner on parole, and the Indian come to plead the wrongs of his race should find them; on that separate, but more free and honorable, ground, where the State places those who are not with her, but against her- the only house in a slave State in which a free man can abide with honor. If any think that their influence would be lost there, and their voices no longer afflict the ear of the State, that they would not be as an enemy within its walls, they do not know by how much truth is stronger than error, nor how much more eloquently and effectively he can combat injustice who has experienced a little in his own person. Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence. A minority is powerless while it conforms to the majority; it is not even a minority then; but it is irresistible when it clogs by its whole weight. If the alternative is to keep all just men in prison, or give up war and slavery, the State will not hesitate which to choose. If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood. This is, in fact, the definition of a peaceable revolution, if any such is possible. If the tax-gatherer, or any other public officer, asks me, as one has done, "But what shall I do?" my answer is, "If you really wish to do anything, resign your office." When the subject has refused allegiance, and the officer has resigned his office, then the revolution is accomplished. But even suppose blood should flow. Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death. I see this blood flowing now.

--Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience"

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Era Might

[dominicansoul]

I doubt Thoreau would agree on banning torches just cos some bloody liberals are triggered by them.

 

[Era Might]

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

I doubt Thoreau would agree on banning torches just cos some bloody liberals are triggered by them.

 

Probably not, but he'd probably have something to say about triggered white conservatives who think they are the true Oppressed Minority in American life and history.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Era Might

[Seven77]

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I certainly don't put politics ahead of religion.  But I do witness this from time time when we have Catholics supporting abortion.  

Patriotism is not nationalistic idolatry!!!  It could be for a fringe few, but over all, patriotism is just revering and loving the country you are living in.    Suddenly patriotism is akin to Hitler's national socialism...which is yet another ridiculous comparison created by the left.  

I don't think of conservative/liberal as merely political parties, more like ideologies.  Republicans are certainly not conservative anymore.  When it comes to ideologies, God does care.  He wants us to avoid at all cost the communist ideology that spread and poisoned the earth.  He does care who rules countries, we've seen Him get involved more than once in kingdoms and shake things up. 

And I do believe God cares very much for America.    

I think you're misunderstanding me…

Patriotism is a good thing… But it seems to me that a lot of people fall into the trap of putting country ahead of doing the will of God. This is idolatry disguised as patriotism… It's not patriotism at all but nationalism.

I know that God cares about people's ideology. Obviously he cares about the governance of countries and all of that in so far as it concerns human dignity. What he doesn't care about is your allegiance to a political party… He is concerned about your reasons behind it though.

[Seven77]

Just wanted to add:

Nationalism is when you put the state ahead of people… Government exists for people, people don't exist for the government. It's when, for example, border security is put ahead of and to the detriment of immigrants, human beings. It's when a flag is more important than human beings, etc. It's when laws are treated like they are God breathed, even unjust laws like slavery, abortion just because that's the way it is in this country.It's when gunsAre put ahead ofPeople justBecauseWe have the right to bear arms. Nationalism is not patriotic, it's not American.

I know that God cares about people's ideology. Obviously he cares about the governance of countries and all of that in so far as it concerns human dignity. What he doesn't care about is your allegiance to a political party… He is concerned about your reasons behind it though.

[havok579257]

5 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I certainly don't put politics ahead of religion.  But I do witness this from time time when we have Catholics supporting abortion.  

Patriotism is not nationalistic idolatry!!!  It could be for a fringe few, but over all, patriotism is just revering and loving the country you are living in.    Suddenly patriotism is akin to Hitler's national socialism...which is yet another ridiculous comparison created by the left.  

I don't think of conservative/liberal as merely political parties, more like ideologies.  Republicans are certainly not conservative anymore.  When it comes to ideologies, God does care.  He wants us to avoid at all cost the communist ideology that spread and poisoned the earth.  He does care who rules countries, we've seen Him get involved more than once in kingdoms and shake things up. 

And I do believe God cares very much for America.    

how about the people demanding a private company like the NFL fire all those players who kneel even though the NFL has nothing in its bargaining contract that says the players are required to stand?  how about a president who is mulling removing state, I repeat, state funds from the NFL because of kneeling players.  The NFL does not receive federal funds, only state funds to build stadiums.  Why is a conservative republican president mulling the federal government come into a state and take over their tax payer fund allocations?  

 

patriotism the way it is presented today by many conservatives in the media is wrong.  they talk about multiculteralism being bad and everyone who comes here should conform to our way of life.  if you come here and don't speak the language, well you shouldn't come here.  if you come here and bring your culture with you and don't 100%subscribe to american culture, when then you should go back to where you came from.  your coming here illegally because you are fleeing for the safety of your children and family(which the church does not condemn by the way), well to bad, you should go back.  patriotism has become the new religion for many, many conservatives.  its sad really.

5 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

censoring traditions because some leftists think its racist is alarming to me...could eventually become a much bigger thing if left unchecked...

I mean, think about it...using the "okay" sign with your fingers is off limits now... i'm sure that doesn't alarm many people just because its such a small minute and silly thing, when at the same time...I see it as an erosion of common sense and a mind control of sorts...you have to think and behave a certain way because certain leftists groups deem it inappropriate to their sensibilities...

...maybe it doesn't affect many of you guys, but where I work this weird censorship affects me heavily...

behave a certain way?  you mean like how conservatives demand people assimilate when they come to this country.  they demand they leave their culture and their language and their way of life at the boarder.  you assimilate to how we american's do things or go back to where you came from.  conservatives do it just as much as liberals.  

 

it really seems like you are blinded to any of the wrong doings of conservatives. conservatives are not all right.  they are wrong, many times.  conservationism has many, many flaws.  fail to recognize them and your no different then the liberals who think the same way about their beliefs.

[KnightofChrist]

@dominicansoul you're wasting your life force. Even if you find actions by the left that are clearly wrong, unjustified, wicked, or whatever that subject will be ignored for the most part. Until you point out it's being ignored then it'll get a few more posts, maybe, and go back to being ignored.

Edited October 12, 2017 by KnightofChrist

[vee]

Yup

[dominicansoul]

7 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

@dominicansoul you're wasting your life force. Even if you find actions by the left that are clearly wrong, unjustified, wicked, or whatever that subject will be ignored for the most part. Until you point out it's being ignored then it'll get a few more posts, maybe, and go back to being ignored.

Oh I don't post these to try and change the minds of anyone on phatmass.  We have more lurkers than posters these days.  My college coworkers and grad student assistants have never heard arguments like mine before because they are systematically brainwashed to believe this asinine stupidity.  They are surrounded by people who just nod and go along.    I mean they honestly believed it was the right thing for the university to put feminine napkin disposals in the men's room.  I don't care how small some people think that is, it's huge to me.  They joined in celebrating when a student tore down pictures of a prolifers display because that was what the rest of the university body did.  They go along with safe spaces and censoring.  They go along with wanting to appease transgenders/LBGTXYZ by learning the billion different pronouns associated with the billions of genders the leftists have created.  I'm sorry but I can't do that!!!  That right there is an example of severe lunacy!!! Now they want to censor torches cos they symbolize racism???  What is next?  The white supremacists were wearing clothes.  Should we all get naked now???  It's like I'm living in the novel 1984!  Or the early days of soviet Poland when the poles couldn't speak their minds in public anymore or say certain things without fear of retribution.  My days are numbered at this job.  They were giving out Susan g Komen pink ribbons and I told everyone SGK supports planned parenthood so I don't want to wear one.  I had liberals hissing at me to put it on!!!!  Oh so not wearing a ribbon means I Love breast cancer and want women to die??  RIDICULOUS!!!  I'm not going to be controlled.   Im not going along with the "white man is out to get the black man" poo either.  The left has long captured the soul and minds of America.  I'm going to do whatever it takes to convince those who actually want to listen and understand my concerns.   

Edited October 12, 2017 by dominicansoul

[Sister Marie]

Actual teachings of the not-conservative, not-liberal Catholic Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be found here:

http://www.usccb.org/about/pro-life-activities/respect-life-program/index.cfm

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/racism/index.cfm

https://www.sharejourney.org/

Our allegiance should be to the Gospel, not a political party. 

[dominicansoul]

I don't understand why people keep bringing up political parties?  I'm speaking ideologies.  

When I read Divini Redemptoris, I am struck by how liberalism, which I believe to have branched off from communism, is sooo closely related to the systematic mind control over the masses employed by the communist at the time it was written.  

Quote

17. There is another explanation for the rapid diffusion of the Communistic ideas now seeping into every nation, great and small, advanced and backward, so that no corner of the earth is free from them. This explanation is to be found in a propaganda so truly diabolical that the world has perhaps never witnessed its like before. It is directed from one common center. It is shrewdly adapted to the varying conditions of diverse peoples. It has at its disposal great financial resources, gigantic organizations, international congresses, and countless trained workers. It makes use of pamphlets and reviews, of cinema, theater and radio, of schools and even universities. Little by little it penetrates into all classes of the people and even reaches the better-minded groups of the community, with the result that few are aware of the poison which increasingly pervades their minds and hearts.

I find this paragraph alone could have been written about today's social engineering manufactured by liberalism.  

[havok579257]

15 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

@dominicansoul you're wasting your life force. Even if you find actions by the left that are clearly wrong, unjustified, wicked, or whatever that subject will be ignored for the most part. Until you point out it's being ignored then it'll get a few more posts, maybe, and go back to being ignored.

The vast majority of people on here acnologe the problems with the left and call them out all the time.  How many people on here blast the left for abortion,  the transgender bathroom fiasco and the left's abandonment of God.

 

What a lot of us take issue with is this assumption that conservatives are completely right on everything they do.  That theis point of view is 100% right.  That if they do something wrong conservatives try to justify or downplay their wrong doings. 

 

Conservativism  is not completely right. Liberalism is not completely right.  Catholicism is completely right. Conservativism and catholicism are not the same thing.

 

[Anomaly]

1 hour ago, havok579257 said:

The vast majority of people on here acnologe (acknowledges) fify) the problems with the left and call them out all the time.  How many people on here blast the left for abortion,  the transgender bathroom fiasco and the left's abandonment of God.

 

What a lot of us take issue with is this assumption that conservatives are completely right on everything they do.  That theis point of view is 100% right.  That if they do something wrong conservatives try to justify or downplay their wrong doings. 

 

Conservativism  is not completely right. Liberalism is not completely right.  Catholicism is completely right. Conservativism and catholicism are not the same thing.

 

Actually, it’s the knee jerk reactions of defending or attacking the stereotypes that’s annoying and frustrates thoughtful discussion.  

For example, though he says he’s republican, Trump isn’t in lockstep with Republicans.   He isn’t close to being consistently conservative either.   And although he is orange, has bad hair, and tweets too much, Trump is not evil incarnate.

Just as the Catholic Church isn’t categorically opposed to the Death Penalty, just that it believes it isn’t needed. 

The same as having a border isn’t and regulating immigration isn’t morally wrong.  

Banning torches is a silly overreaction, just as getting all worked up about it is silly.   Chuckle at it and point out that it’s unreasonable to take offense, else you demonstrate that the expected reaction to every little thing is Def-Con 90+++

You’ve got real issues if everyone is having an issue, or assuming there is an issue or conspiracy, or serious social erosion with every silly fault, rudeness, coarseness, misguided effort, mistake, slight error, etc.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Anomaly

[dominicansoul]

50 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Actually, it’s the knee jerk reactions of defending or attacking the stereotypes that’s annoying and frustrates thoughtful discussion.  

For example, though he says he’s republican, Trump isn’t in lockstep with Republicans.   He isn’t close to being consistently conservative either.   And although he is orange, has bad hair, and tweets too much, Trump is not evil incarnate.

Just as the Catholic Church isn’t categorically opposed to the Death Penalty, just that it believes it isn’t needed. 

The same as having a border isn’t and regulating immigration isn’t morally wrong.  

Banning torches is a silly overreaction, just as getting all worked up about it is silly.   Chuckle at it and point out that it’s unreasonable to take offense, else you demonstrate that the expected reaction to every little thing is Def-Con 90+++

You’ve got real issues if everyone is having an issue, or assuming there is an issue or conspiracy, or serious social erosion with every silly fault, rudeness, coarseness, misguided effort, mistake, slight error, etc.

I used to believe like this...but now I see it can be really damaging... 

Like I said, I'm alarmed by what I witness.  It's bizarre behavior not by one or two people, but by thousands on a pretty big and popular campus.  Call me a conspiracy theorists, but something is definitely amiss...

[Anomaly]

11 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

I used to believe like this...but now I see it can be really damaging... 

Like I said, I'm alarmed by what I witness.  It's bizarre behavior not by one or two people, but by thousands on a pretty big and popular campus.  Call me a conspiracy theorists, but something is definitely amiss...

It’s not amiss, it’s  “MAADE”.

MUTUALLY

ASSURED

ARTIFICIAL

DRAMA

ESCALATION.   

[dominicansoul]

Well, you can believe that if you wish, I am only here to stand as a witness to what is going on around me.  

If you want others to control what you think and say, keep ignoring the signs.  Evil prevails when the good do absolutely nothing about it.  We see this with abortion.  A high percentage of  Catholics believe abortion is wrong, but only a small percentage think it should be abolished for good.  The left has done it's job making us rethink even abortion.  You see, the left has totally changed our definitions and phrases and words to their own benefit.  Marriage has been redefined, gender has been redefined, abortion has been redefined, much of our history has been revised, symbols become anathema, and most of it is accepted as small beans, no big deal.  

I heard from a friend California passed a law making it illegal to address Transgenders living in assisted care/elder homes by the wrong pronouns.  The law states you will be fined $1,000 and if you continue to do it, you will get jail time.   I read the bill online.  They made it sound pretty enough to pass it (but it's California, even if they were blunt about it it would have passed.)

I live in TEXAS of all places and see this kind of thing possible, most especially on these liberal university campuses.  But I speak out in my own way, and I get my students rethinking this stuff.  I don't know if that's good enough, but at least I try to do something about it...

Edited October 12, 2017 by dominicansoul

[Era Might]

8 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

When I read Divini Redemptoris, I am struck by how liberalism, which I believe to have branched off from communism, is sooo closely related to the systematic mind control over the masses employed by the communist at the time it was written. 

I'm reading an interesting book right now, subtitled "Class, Consciousness and Salvation in Revolutionary Russia." Communism was remarkably similar to Christianity, it was an eschatological worldview that had a definite salvific event (the coming of Christ, the Russian revolution) and then a "not yet" period where true believers had to deal with the reality of believing that the significant event had taken place, but salvation was still in process.

Liberalism was and is the total opposite. Liberalism saw society as a place of contending "interests" that balance themselves out. This is more or less what we call in America "conservatism."

Part of the reason why Russia was radicalized was because Christianity refused to engage the world. Even social democracy was considered a danger to Christianity by the Orthodox church. In the West there was a similar dynamic, but the Reformation changed everything, because the Reformation created a new Christian dynamic where Christians were no longer passive spectators of history, but were called on to actually bring about a Christian order through social action. 

Every society engages in mind control. America is no less totalitarian than Communist Russia, except that America's mind controllers are business interests rather than political interests. Or, there's a marriage between the two, as we see in the nationalistic ritual of the NFL where sports have become an altar on which we offer sacrifices to dead veterans and a flag.

Mind control has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism. When you create a system, any system, it will lead to systematic control...whether it is concentrated in the state or not. America has a vast system that most people have no idea of. The Democratic and Republican parties are two big ones, though not the only ones.

[Seven77]

8 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I don't understand why people keep bringing up political parties?  I'm speaking ideologies. 

 

That's just it: ideologies. Ideology is the problem. Conservatism and liberalism as they are today, are ideologies. They are polarized opposites, they are radical, and unbalanced. Ideology is not compatible with faith.

 

8 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

When I readDivini .Redemptoris..

1

 As long as we are quoting  the encyclical:

46. Still more important as a remedy for the evil we are considering, or certainly more directly calculated to cure it, is the precept of charity. We have in mind that Christian charity, "patient and kind,"[32] which avoids all semblance of demeaning paternalism, and all ostentation; that charity which from the very beginning of Christianity won to Christ the poorest of the poor, the slaves. And We are grateful to all those members of charitable associations, from the conferences of St. Vincent de Paul to the recent great relief organizations, which are perseveringly practicing the spiritual and corporal works of mercy. The more the working men and the poor realize what the spirit of love animated by the virtue of Christ is doing for them, the more readily will they abandon the false persuasion that Christianity has lost its efficacy and that the Church stands on the side of the exploiters of their labor. 47. But when on the one hand We see thousands of the needy, victims of real misery for various reasons beyond their control, and on the other so many round about them who spend huge sums of money on useless things and frivolous amusement, We cannot fail to remark with sorrow not only that justice is poorly observed, but that the precept of charity also is not sufficiently appreciated, is not a vital thing in daily life. We desire therefore, Venerable Brethren, that this divine precept, this precious mark of identification left by Christ to His true disciples, be ever more fully explained by pen and word of mouth; this precept which teaches us to see in those who suffer Christ Himself, and would have us love our brothers as Our Divine Savior has loved us, that is, even at the sacrifice of ourselves, and, if need be, of our very life. Let all then frequently meditate on those words of the final sentence, so consoling yet so terrifying, which the Supreme Judge will pronounce on the day of the Last Judgment: "Come, ye blessed of my Father . . . for I was hungry and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me to drink . . . Amen, I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren you did it to me."[33] And the reverse: "Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire . . . for I was hungry and you gave me not to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink . . . Amen, I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least. neither did you do it to me."[34]

So, the cure… It's charity. Charity wins people over. Do you want to win people for Christ, and not for ideology? Start with charity… Charity is truth in action. Talk is often not at all beautiful. charity is always beautiful. And the power of charity can be communicated Through beauty.  And that brings to mind the media… Good, beautiful, true works of art and film and music exist… If not whole works, then slivers. Pope Pius XII focuses on the problem as he sees it, but he also doesn't just leave it there. The best strategy is charity.  Charity and beauty… The best ways to win the culture over. That's why Dostoyevsky writes that Beauty will save the world.

[Seven77]

20 minutes ago, Era Might said:

I'm reading an interesting book right now, subtitled "Class, Consciousness and Salvation in Revolutionary Russia." Communism was remarkably similar to Christianity, it was an eschatological worldview that had a definite salvific event (the coming of Christ, the Russian revolution) and then a "not yet" period where true believers had to deal with the reality of believing that the significant event had taken place, but salvation was still in process.

Liberalism was and is the total opposite. Liberalism saw society as a place of contending "interests" that balance themselves out. This is more or less what we call in America "conservatism."

Part of the reason why Russia was radicalized was because Christianity refused to engage the world. Even social democracy was considered a danger to Christianity by the Orthodox church. In the West there was a similar dynamic, but the Reformation changed everything, because the Reformation created a new Christian dynamic where Christians were no longer passive spectators of history, but were called on to actually bring about a Christian order through social action. 

Every society engages in mind control. America is no less totalitarian than Communist Russia, except that America's mind controllers are business interests rather than political interests. Or, there's a marriage between the two, as we see in the nationalistic ritual of the NFL where sports have become an altar on which we offer sacrifices to dead veterans and a flag.

Mind control has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism. When you create a system, any system, it will lead to systematic control...whether it is concentrated in the state or not. America has a vast system that most people have no idea of. The Democratic and Republican parties are two big ones, though not the only ones.

5

5

It existed before the Reformation. The Christian dynamic of changing the whole social order has always been there. Look at the early church and how Rome was turned upside down from the inside out. It was through the witness of Christians who were very much not passive spectators of history.

But, yeah… We can only bring about Christian order through charitable action. Solidarity. We are all in it together. The early Christians knew that it was not us versus them. It's about bringing redemption, the redemption that Christ won on the cross into the world by our witness and actions.We all need Jesus and the Church.

And, mind control…  ideology.  Pope Francis has denounced ideology in some of the things he said. ideology is dangerous… It doesn't build up. It robs you. 

Nationalism is an ideology… It is state worship. I think it began as patriotism but it's become devolved into nationalism, with its flag and parchment idolatry. 

Our Lady of Fatima pray for us. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Seven77

[KnightofChrist]

3 hours ago, havok579257 said:

The vast majority of people on here acnologe the problems with the left and call them out all the time.  How many people on here blast the left for abortion,  the transgender bathroom fiasco and the left's abandonment of God.

 

What a lot of us take issue with is this assumption that conservatives are completely right on everything they do.  That theis point of view is 100% right.  That if they do something wrong conservatives try to justify or downplay their wrong doings. 

 

Conservativism  is not completely right. Liberalism is not completely right.  Catholicism is completely right. Conservativism and catholicism are not the same thing.

 

Paragraphs one and two have not been my observation. I just see the same cards played each time someone tries to discuss problems coming from the left. The it's no big deal/you're completely over reacting card. The yeah that's bad but conservatives are equally bad card. Or the we're all upset about this too but let's not talk about it much unlike when conservatives do something stupid card. 

I can agree with the third paragraph, from a certain point of view. The Church is right but it is Conservativism in it's true or pure sense. She conserves the truth, without change (liberalism) through out time.