shaving

[SaintOfVirtue]

I view women as the finer sex ergo I expect them to actually be finer. That involves doing womanly things like shaving and being pretty. I don't think women should look like men. 

[littlebell]

Stating that women who shave make themselves subjects of the patriarchy is absurd. Are you saying that if a woman doesn't shave, she is not a subject of this "patriarchy" you are blathering about? 

Men are not telling you what to do - a couple of men and I have expressed our opinions in this forum on women not shaving. Neither they, nor I, a woman, are forcing you to do anything to your body you don't want to do. 

I'm going to be blunt and say that you are going to have a very difficult time in life if you get so upset and angry (evidenced by calling people arse portals - and we all know the term you really want to use, but can't on this site) at people with whom you disagree. You are the one who brought up the subject of shaving. You are the one who, by bringing it up, invited others express their thoughts on the subject. Now you are whining because a few people had points of view different from yours. If you can't tolerate a difference of opinion, why did you bring the subject up? 

[fides' Jack]

Quote

as long as you don't judge women who don't shave their legs until you start judging men for the same, i don't care. 

the hair of men and the hair of women belongs to them and them alone. they should be able to do what they want with their hair without social stigma or the judgements of sexists on the internet. 

sexism is when you expect and allow different things of different sexes. expecting women to shave while not expecting men to shave is sexist. 

shaving doesn't make women "responsible" or "mature." it makes them subjects of the patriarchy--that  is, men like you who are telling them what to do with their own bodies. 

You still did not understand my post, in the slightest.

I didn't say shaving makes anybody responsible or mature.  Nor did I say that women should shave or not shave.  Nor did I say that men should shave or not shave.  I'm not telling them what to do.  I have never judged a woman for not shaving (not that I've seen it much...).

My argument is about the nature of your argument.  I'm telling you it doesn't make sense to tell men to stop calling out women for not shaving.  That's very different than telling women to stop shaving.

So, if you think men and women are naturally different, you're a sexist?  That's news to me.  I expect women to be women, and men to be men.  I guess that means I'm sexist.  Or, rather, maybe it just means that you're entire viewpoint on the matter is foolish.

There is one thing that I'm not sexist about in the slightest - I hold all people, of all (both) genders, to the same grammatical standards.  If you can't use proper capitalization, I can't really take anything you say seriously.  No respectable person would.

I want to add, also, about the patriarchy bit: clearly you've never been married.  

Edited February 20, 2018 by fides' Jack
The system cut out the quote for some reason...

[Peace]

On 2/19/2018 at 8:48 PM, ToJesusMyHeart said:

as long as you don't judge women who don't shave their legs until you start judging men for the same, i don't care. 

the hair of men and the hair of women belongs to them and them alone. they should be able to do what they want with their hair without social stigma or the judgements of sexists on the internet.

That's cool as long as we can still have our personal preferences. My girlfriend prefers that I shave my face because she does not find beards attractive. I  prefer that she shaves her legs because I don't find hairy legs attractive.

On 2/19/2018 at 8:48 PM, ToJesusMyHeart said:

sexism is when you expect and allow different things of different sexes.

I expect women to carry children for 9 months and to give birth to them. I don't expect this of men.

Does that make me sexist?

On 2/19/2018 at 8:48 PM, ToJesusMyHeart said:

shaving doesn't make women "responsible" or "mature." it makes them subjects of the patriarchy--that  is, men like you who are telling them what to do with their own bodies. 

I don't know about all of that. If I were to grow my hair down to my waist and roll outside a whole lot of women are going to judge me in a negative way. That doesn't  make me the subject of matriarchy. It just means that men and women have different physical makeups and are generally attracted to different things.

That being said, do what you want to do. If shaving is not your thing that is perfectly cool by me.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

We are different, everyone is an individual. We can love equally but we are different. And its not a bad thing, variety is the spice of life. Stuff the free mason grey code that everyone should be the same, slaves to the dollar. Work, spend, sleep, sex, and don't make a sound because the lost will never be found.

The catholic church believes in love not sin, sin is selfish and love is virtue/self giving, this is what it all boils down to, do you believe in love or not. A man loves woman because her differences complete what a man doesn't have, it is the difference that completes, a way to learn what you don't know, a relationship of growing/changing and becoming the perfect person. Many don't believe in perfection.

Where only human right? Slackers, though Christ won't strike you down, repent and believe in the good news, Jesus can make you perfect in love, and if you fail, REPENT!

Edited February 21, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[dominicansoul]

Ur making a mountain out of a molehill. 

if women don’t want to shave who cares?  If women want to shave, who cares?  

 

Seriously im asking.....who really truly cares??  Lol

[Ice_nine]

Some people care. A lot of today's beauty standards are kind of ridiculous and, at the end of the day, a way for corporations to make a dollar.

I noticed the idea of body odor popping up. But the idea that people smell bad was initially propagated by companies that offered a remedy. The term halitosis was invented by some mouthwash company or something.

Of course we become conditioned to these certain standards, myself included.

But yeah I don't really care that much. I don't shave except sporadically. Some people might judge. Oh well. Can't please everyone.

[chrysostom]

On 2/20/2018 at 11:37 AM, fides' Jack said:

Or, rather, maybe it just means that you're entire viewpoint on the matter is foolish.

I hold all people, of all (both) genders, to the same grammatical standards.

*your

Edited February 22, 2018 by chrysostom

[SaintOfVirtue]

Oh snap. Got him.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

To shave or not shave that is the question. I have a gotay and i like it but unsure having one or not having one has any real blessings or consequences except that of my ego or others if we want to be so precious about it, it neither increases my virtue or decreases, but it has caused me to sin actuals, after I shaved it I was getting cranky that it wasn't growing fast enough because I wanted to put beads in it again, but in general its a neutral neither here nore there unless I get all vain about it like I did. One can be vain about having hair or not having hair I guess, looks are looks and one likes one look and another another look, why are looks so important I guess is the question and what exactly is vainty, to look down upon another because of there appearance perhaps, thinking one has superior looks or fashion sense to another, better cologne, better car, better pet dog, the list goes on. Pride. 

[fides' Jack]

Thanks for the correction.  I do make mistakes, too, especially using "you're" instead of "your" when I'm typing quickly. 

I will add, there's a big difference between a typo, which I can overlook with others, and intentionally not using any capitalization, ever.

Edited February 22, 2018 by fides' Jack
Clarification on stance on issues of grammar

[SaintOfVirtue]

That is a capital offense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ba-dum-tss

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

was anything positive intended to come from this discussion? I'm asking because I'm failing to see what the positive purpose is, other to swat a hornets nest and have amusement from watching people run around, which is not really a positive at all.

[fides' Jack]

It's important, every once in a while, to swat that nest. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

The poor girl is interested to know what others think. Be Optimistic. Why be a bunch of deceptacon bullies assuming the worst.  one can choose to make it a hornets nest or chillax and discuss the possibilities of the discussed topic.

And allow our egos to be deflated to the correct level. Lol. Me to of course.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[havok579257]

I think her issue stems from the fact that people generally comment on how "ugly" a women is who doesn't shave.  Its not that they just don't like it on women, some people will go out of their way to make it know to the women they are "ugly" because they don't shave.  This is not cool.

 

At the end of the day the vast majority of people let society and media tell them what is attractive.  Its sad but true.  Also most of the beauty standards are from a man's point of view (I am a man by the way).  Until just recently it stereotypical beautiful women was the hour glass shape, with lots of makeup on, no blemishes,minimal fat and extremely seductive looking.  I mean just look how many women dress a certain way solely because its what the average man considered beautiful and they are trying to be seen as attractive to men.  Only recently has society begun to push back on this stereotype of beauty and say women with curves all over, who who are not nearly fat free, women who have imperfections and women who are on the larger side are beautiful.  Now a women can be beautiful in many different ways.  It didn't use to be like that.  Not since the moderinzation of visual media. I mean just look throughout history and see the different beauty standards and what was considered beautiful. It used to be very different.  

So while I think the OP may have come off as something different I would guess the intent was for people to stop judging women on their looks leave them alone instead of coming face to face and making comments about how "ugly" they are just because they don't conform to what the typical beauty standard has been.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

yes, havok you are correct. the point is that it is NOBODY's business to yell at or judge women for not shaving their bodies. women are equally beautiful with hairy, natural bodies as shaven, unnatural ones. each woman should be allowed to groom herself as she sees fit. 

 

men don't get to dictate to women how to take care of their bodies. 

[fides' Jack]

5 hours ago, havok579257 said:

I think her issue stems from the fact that people generally comment on how "ugly" a women is who doesn't shave.  Its not that they just don't like it on women, some people will go out of their way to make it know to the women they are "ugly" because they don't shave.  This is not cool.

 

At the end of the day the vast majority of people let society and media tell them what is attractive.  Its sad but true.  Also most of the beauty standards are from a man's point of view (I am a man by the way).  Until just recently it stereotypical beautiful women was the hour glass shape, with lots of makeup on, no blemishes,minimal fat and extremely seductive looking.  I mean just look how many women dress a certain way solely because its what the average man considered beautiful and they are trying to be seen as attractive to men.  Only recently has society begun to push back on this stereotype of beauty and say women with curves all over, who who are not nearly fat free, women who have imperfections and women who are on the larger side are beautiful.  Now a women can be beautiful in many different ways.  It didn't use to be like that.  Not since the moderinzation of visual media. I mean just look throughout history and see the different beauty standards and what was considered beautiful. It used to be very different.  

So while I think the OP may have come off as something different I would guess the intent was for people to stop judging women on their looks leave them alone instead of coming face to face and making comments about how "ugly" they are just because they don't conform to what the typical beauty standard has been.

I think there are multiple issues here.  There is a standard of beauty that men, in general, have for women (thought I disagree with the 'lots of makeup' statement).  That's not a bad thing.  Most men are not attracted to overly large women, if he were to give a 'rating' solely based on looks.  Most men are, in general, also much more willing to compromise on the physical attractiveness of a potential spouse than they are given credit for, as long as the woman has some semblance of virtue.  This isn't an issue that needs fixing, in my opinion.

Another issue that you're talking about is basically bullying.  I have never, ever known a male would would go up to a woman and call her physically ugly.  I can't imagine that happening.  I can imagine a scenario where she provokes that kind of insult...  Is this really something that women are having to deal with?  I guess I can see a woman who is obviously dressed or otherwise 'made-up' in a way that goes against accepted social norms - for instance, having a green mohawk - getting called ugly.  But in that case, it's not her physical body that they are calling ugly so much as it is her willingness to discard her own femininity, and, in effect, virtue.

19 minutes ago, ToJesusMyHeart said:

yes, havok you are correct. the point is that it is NOBODY's business to yell at or judge women for not shaving their bodies. women are equally beautiful with hairy, natural bodies as shaven, unnatural ones. each woman should be allowed to groom herself as she sees fit. 

 

men don't get to dictate to women how to take care of their bodies. 

Again, I don't see anyone, at least in Western culture, getting yelled at for not shaving.  It's probably happened a few times, just because of Murphy's Law, but it's gotta be few and far between.

I do disagree with the premise, also.  As long as the woman is living at home, she must abide by the wishes of her parents in this regard, as long as those wishes are not sinful.  After she leaves home, if she is not married, she can do whatever she wants to do.  Then again, within the confines of marriage, she must abide by the wishes of her husband.  So, typically, there is a short period of time when it is nobody's business.  The rest of the time, it is somebody's business.  This is all speaking morally, of course.  Legally women should have their own rights.

Another fact remains, that Havok brought up, that women have been conforming themselves to the whims of men for longer than history has been recorded.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just a natural thing.  And there's also the fact that if a woman refuses to conform herself in this way, she greatly lessens the chance of finding a potential suitor, at least in a crowd-type setting, just based on physical appearances.

[littlebell]

ToJesusMyHeart,  it's interesting that you are whining, once again, about people judging you, yet you used the term arse portal (and again, we know you meant what you really meant, a--holes) to describe people who did not share your point of view. You have never addressed this issue when I brought it up.  You are a hypocrite. You seem to have a desperate need to be validated by having people agree with you.

No one "yelled" at you. No one judged you. I expressed my opinion about not shaving and you couldn't tolerate a difference of opinion. I don't know you, so I can't judge you. I can judge your actions. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. 

So, let me again be very clear. You have the right not to shave. No one is coming after you with a razor to shave you. 

Stop whining and put on your big girl panties. 

[havok579257]

8 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

I think there are multiple issues here.  There is a standard of beauty that men, in general, have for women (thought I disagree with the 'lots of makeup' statement).  That's not a bad thing.  Most men are not attracted to overly large women, if he were to give a 'rating' solely based on looks.  Most men are, in general, also much more willing to compromise on the physical attractiveness of a potential spouse than they are given credit for, as long as the woman has some semblance of virtue.  This isn't an issue that needs fixing, in my opinion.

Another issue that you're talking about is basically bullying.  I have never, ever known a male would would go up to a woman and call her physically ugly.  I can't imagine that happening.  I can imagine a scenario where she provokes that kind of insult...  Is this really something that women are having to deal with?  I guess I can see a woman who is obviously dressed or otherwise 'made-up' in a way that goes against accepted social norms - for instance, having a green mohawk - getting called ugly.  But in that case, it's not her physical body that they are calling ugly so much as it is her willingness to discard her own femininity, and, in effect, virtue.

Again, I don't see anyone, at least in Western culture, getting yelled at for not shaving.  It's probably happened a few times, just because of Murphy's Law, but it's gotta be few and far between.

I do disagree with the premise, also.  As long as the woman is living at home, she must abide by the wishes of her parents in this regard, as long as those wishes are not sinful.  After she leaves home, if she is not married, she can do whatever she wants to do.  Then again, within the confines of marriage, she must abide by the wishes of her husband.  So, typically, there is a short period of time when it is nobody's business.  The rest of the time, it is somebody's business.  This is all speaking morally, of course.  Legally women should have their own rights.

Another fact remains, that Havok brought up, that women have been conforming themselves to the whims of men for longer than history has been recorded.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just a natural thing.  And there's also the fact that if a woman refuses to conform herself in this way, she greatly lessens the chance of finding a potential suitor, at least in a crowd-type setting, just based on physical appearances.

Actually if you look at what beauty has been throughout human history you will see men have been attracted to larger women.  In the Victorian era a women was considered attractive if she was large because it indicated wealth and if she was skinny it indicated she was poor.  just an fyi.

 

you haven't seen bullying with regards to women and their looks?  seriously?  did you go to high school?  do you know what social media is?  do you honestly not know anyone who was bullied for their looks?  its possible, i just find that hard to believe. i mean it happens nearly everywhere and in every corner of the world.  in schools, sports, jobs, media and so on.  its a reason women commit suicide.  i can't imagine any adult in this day and age in america could honestly say they have never seen a woman bullied because of their looks.

 

also how on earth can anyone on here, on phatmass be ok with what society at large accepts.  i mean look at what society deems as beautiful.  large chested, big bottom, half naked women.  i mean to see what society deems as acceptable all anyone needs to do is look at any form of people and you will see it deems women should be seen as a sex symbol for men.  i mean i am a man but its disgusting.  women are beaten to death by media that they should be a sex symbol for men.  if they are not and are ok with not being a sex symbol they are made out to be weridos and losers.  i mean for anyone on here to say we should go off of what society deems as beautiful is ridiculous in my book.

 

i also don't agree with the premise that a women living at home has to abide by her parents if its not sinful.  there are many ridiculous rules parents could put in place that are no sinful that I don't believe a women should have to follow.  i mean its not sinful for someone to not be on the internet or to not watch tv or not listen to the radio or to only wear pantaloons or so on and so on. none of those things are sinful but i don't agree that if a parent or husband made those requests a women should be forced to abide by those requests.  do you?

 

although should women have to conform themselves to what men want when since the dawn of media men have wanted an unrealistic example of a women.  one that is not achievable by the vast majority of women.  when men want a playboy cover model?  sure not all men but just turn the tv on and watch a commercial to see what men are looking for in a woman.  should women make themselves a sex symbol so they can abide by what the majority of men want?