Will the Salesian sisters discern with a young woman who needs medicine

[28yrolddiscerner]

I know I am called to the religious life, and everyone agrees I am stable and joyful.  I’m scared to ask... would they entertain me as a candidate?

i take one psych med. low dose.

Edited April 10, 2018 by 28yrolddiscerner
Clarity

[tinytherese]

Have you been to the Vocations section on this phorum? You'll be more likely to get responses from people there.

[GreenScapularedHuman]

I am not exactly sure what the law is in this matter... but I suspect that if a religious order wanted to bar someone due to mental health matters that would violate the Americans with Disabilities Act... I know there are some religious exceptions to this in the United States.

From doing very little reading it sounds like it varies by religious order and by country. It sounds like because other nations have stronger anti-discrimination laws perhaps if it is a complication you should consider moving to such a nation to seek your vocation... if that is what you want.

[Luigi]

This is taken not from a government page  - I found that one too confusing - but from a not-for-profit organization that provides training on the ADA: https://adata.org/learn-about-ada

"The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) became law in 1990. The ADA is a civil rights law that prohibits discrimination against individuals with disabilities in all areas of public life, including jobs, schools, transportation, and all public and private places that are open to the general public. The purpose of the law is to make sure that people with disabilities have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else. The ADA gives civil rights protections to individuals with disabilities similar to those provided to individuals on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, age, and religion. It guarantees equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities in public accommodations, employment, transportation, state and local government services, and telecommunications. The ADA is divided into five titles (or sections) that relate to different areas of public life."

The ADA does not cover religious life.

28yrolddiscerner - Contact the Salesians directly. Only they can answer your question.

[GreenScapularedHuman]

3 hours ago, Luigi said:

This is taken not from a government page  - I found that one too confusing - but from a not-for-profit organization that provides training on the ADA: https://adata.org/learn-about-ada

"The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) became law in 1990. The ADA is a civil rights law that prohibits discrimination against individuals with disabilities in all areas of public life, including jobs, schools, transportation, and all public and private places that are open to the general public. The purpose of the law is to make sure that people with disabilities have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else. The ADA gives civil rights protections to individuals with disabilities similar to those provided to individuals on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, age, and religion. It guarantees equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities in public accommodations, employment, transportation, state and local government services, and telecommunications. The ADA is divided into five titles (or sections) that relate to different areas of public life."

The ADA does not cover religious life.

28yrolddiscerner - Contact the Salesians directly. Only they can answer your question.

You are grossly incorrect. It does apply to religious organizations, the Supreme Court has said that certain 'ministers' (who are inherent to the religion itself), anti-discrimination laws do not apply. BUT... Anyone who less than a minister the ADA does apply, case in point http://www.journalgazette.net/news/local/courts/Jury-sides-with-fired-teacher-4094706 .

[Luigi]

3 hours ago, GreenScapularedHuman said:

You are grossly incorrect. It does apply to religious organizations, the Supreme Court has said that certain 'ministers' (who are inherent to the religion itself), anti-discrimination laws do not apply. BUT... Anyone who less than a minister the ADA does apply, case in point http://www.journalgazette.net/news/local/courts/Jury-sides-with-fired-teacher-4094706 .

This article never mentions the ADA. Infertility is not considered a disability. I don't know which law covered this case, but it wasn't the ADA.

[GreenScapularedHuman]

1 hour ago, Luigi said:

This article never mentions the ADA. Infertility is not considered a disability. I don't know which law covered this case, but it wasn't the ADA.

As the article mentions itself:

Quote

At issue in the case was whether the diocese discriminated against Herx because of her gender by treating her differently than similarly situated male employees, or because of her attempts to become pregnant, by forcing her to choose between in vitro fertilization and her job. 

ADA has been used to handle discrimination based on gender, for example relating to pregnancy, which is what happened in this case.

Specifically this was the whole of the case:

Quote

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1685291.html
Herx sued the Diocese and St. Vincent School (collectively, “the Diocese”) alleging claims under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, as amended by the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, see 42 U.S.C. § 2000e–2; id. § 2000e(k), and the Americans with Disabilities Act (“ADA”), see 42 U.S.C. §§ 12101 et seq. She contends that the defendants discriminated against her on the basis of sex and disability by refusing to renew her contract because she underwent in vitro fertilization.

They did in fact try to argue the exemption to religious organizations in the anti-discrimination laws as currently established... these were summarily dismissed as baseless and went no where...

Quote

Invoking the exemptions in the context of this case raises a question of first impression in this circuit: Are the religious-employer exemptions in Title VII applicable only to claims of religious discrimination or do they apply more broadly to other employment-discrimination claims? Relying on caselaw from other circuits, the district court held that the religious-employer exemptions apply only to claims alleging religious discrimination and do not bar Title VII claims against religious organizations alleging discrimination on the basis of race, color, sex, or national origin. See e.g., Kennedy v. St. Joseph's Ministries, Inc ., 657 F.3d 189, 192 (4th Cir.2011); Boyd v. Harding Acad. of Memphis, Inc., 88 F.3d 410, 413 (6th Cir.1996); EEOC v. Pac. Press Publ'g (filtered) 'n, 676 F.2d 1272, 1279 (9th Cir.1982).

The Diocese argued in the alternative that if the statutory exemptions do not apply, then Title VII is unconstitutional as applied because the jury would be asked to engage in an impermissible inquiry into the religious teachings of the Catholic Church. The judge was sensitive to this problem. He acknowledged that “[t]he Diocese is understandably concerned about the possibility of a ․ jury conducting its own secular analysis of Roman Catholic doctrine on in vitro fertilization.” He said “[t]hat shouldn't happen” in this case, and he assured the parties that he would instruct the jury not to consider “whether [the Diocese's] actions were wise, reasonable, or fair,” but only whether Herx had proved that the Diocese took an adverse employment action against her because of her sex. Federal Civil Jury Instructions of the Seventh Circuit 3.07 (2010).

The Diocese also argued that the ministerial exception rooted in the religion clauses of the First Amendment barred Herx's claim. See Hosanna–Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church & Sch. v. EEOC, 132 S.Ct. 694 (2012). The judge rejected this argument as well, holding that because Herx was a lay language-arts teacher with no role in religious education at St. Vincent, the ministerial exception did not apply.

Finally, the judge held that a reasonable jury could find the Diocese liable on Herx's sex-discrimination claim. The Diocese said it would discharge any employee—male or female—who was found to have violated the Church's teaching against in vitro fertilization. In other words, the Diocese requires all employees to abide by the moral standards set by the Church and enforces those standards without regard to sex. The judge concluded that “a jury wouldn't be compelled to accept that avowed gender-neutrality.” This was so, the judge held, “[e]ven in the face of ․ evidence [of gender neutrality] from the Diocese,” because “a jury that resolved every factual dispute, and drew every reasonable inference, in Mrs. Herx's favor could infer that Mrs. Herx's contract would have been renewed had she been male and everything else remained the same.”

For these reasons, the judge denied the Diocese's motion for summary judgment on the sex-discrimination claim and set a trial date of December 16, 2014.

 

And just a fun fact for you... infertility and/or pregnancy IS a disability under the law. It is just perhaps not the same kind of disability in the sense that one might apply for disability benefits like with the Social Security administration.

But yeah... IF you get to sue the Catholic Church for discrimination... and win in the millions... you know what that means? Anti-discrimination laws apply to the Catholic Church. Cope.

Edited April 26, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman

[Luigi]

Look. Neither you nor I are lawyers. We can argue this for the next umpteen years, and it won't make any difference whatsoever. 

28yrolddiscerner asked a question that no one on this board can answer. She needs to ask the order she's interested in. 

You've successfully hijacked another thread. Congratulations. 

 

The subject is now closed - to me at, least. 

[GreenScapularedHuman]

1 hour ago, Luigi said:

Look. Neither you nor I are lawyers. We can argue this for the next umpteen years, and it won't make any difference whatsoever.

There is nothing to argue. Your statement was factually wrong. It isn't even a matter of belief or opinion. It was very simply and utterly wrong.

1 hour ago, Luigi said:

28yrolddiscerner asked a question that no one on this board can answer. She needs to ask the order she's interested in.

I answered the question that it does vary religious order to religious order... and even nation to nation...

14 hours ago, GreenScapularedHuman said:

From doing very little reading it sounds like it varies by religious order and by country. It sounds like because other nations have stronger anti-discrimination laws perhaps if it is a complication you should consider moving to such a nation to seek your vocation... if that is what you want.

 

1 hour ago, Luigi said:

You've successfully hijacked another thread. Congratulations.

To reply to the OP very directly in a relevant manner is not a hijack. To respond very directly to what you wrote is not a hijack. WHICH to note you decided to argue if the ADA applied to religious organizations (which was not the topic, which I even attempted to feign some mildness in comment by saying suspect to avoid adjudicating it).

I think what you mean is 'you proved my statement wrong... I am frustrated... I don't like your opinion... so I will make personal attacks on you.'

Which if that is your best retort... congratulations. If that is your best maturity. Heaven help you.

1 hour ago, Luigi said:

The subject is now closed - to me at, least. 

I'm glad that you have the fictions power to decide when a subject is closed after that little tirade.

And just so you know... you may not be a lawyer... but don't presume for me anything. Don't bring me down to your level.

[beatitude]

I'm moving this to VS, where it will get more replies - although as Luigi has said, the only way to find out if a community will consider you is to contact them directly.

In general there is no one-size-fits-all rule on this where religious life is concerned. I'm disabled, and at first both I and the community I am applying to enter thought that their life would be too physically demanding for me. But on getting to know me better they are willing for me to at least try the life, and I've seen in my many visits to them that they make sensitive adjustments for sisters' differing health needs. However, adjustment is not always possible. A good friend of mine had to leave her monastery because no matter how hard the nuns tried to accommodate her, her illness was just too severe. It really depends on what the person's needs are, and the only way to find out if it's viable for you is through a relationship with the community. Don't be afraid to approach these sisters and ask. Also be careful not to make your health the whole subject of the conversation. Share with them why you're interested in their particular community, as any discerner would. It's not helpful if people shop around for a community based on their health needs, as this is not how vocation works - you need to feel a genuine call to their spirituality and ministry.

[Sister Leticia]

I would second what Beatitude has said, as only the order themselves can answer your question. And even though someone else can tell you their experience with that order, there might be some differences between their situation and yours - or since whenever they visited/discerned/entered/left, the order's processes, or experience with other candidates may have changed. 

But... at the same time you were posting this in another forum, I recall you started another thread, here, in which you said you felt very strongly called to cloistered life. Well, the Salesians are anything but cloistered! They are very apostolic, with a specific ministry to children and young people. So I wonder what is happening for you, and whether you have someone with whom you can sit down and talk about all this, someone who can accompany you as you seek to find out where and to what sort of life God is calling you?

That said, there is no harm in exploring different types of religious life - in a spirit of openness and discovery. Quite often, people in the early stages of discernment have no idea what God is calling them to, and will maybe contact/visit all sorts of communities. I know someone who has decided to start with the orders in and around her parish - this includes one strictly enclosed Carmel plus 3 apostolic orders with very different charisms, lifestyles and ministry focus. Hopefully, as time progresses, she will, with guidance, be able to reflect on her different visits and contacts and begin to explore just which charism, spirituality and way of living religious life she feels most drawn to. 

But people do need to beware that they don't as Beatitude put it, 

4 hours ago, beatitude said:

shop around for a community based on their health needs, as this is not how vocation works - you need to feel a genuine call to their spirituality and ministry.

Health can be a factor in determining vocation, eg someone with any sort of back problem or health issues couldn't live the Missionaries of Charity life. But if health becomes THE determining factor, then there's a risk of desperately trying to find an order that will accept this or that health issue, rather than centring discernment on a genuine call to a particular spirituality and way of life and service. 

Blessings and prayer for you, in your searching

[Indwelling Trinity]

My brothers and Sisters a vocation is a gift from God. If God wants you to be in a community nothing can stand I in his way! 

Get rid of your worldly ideas. Can you not see Satan trying  to slip in and cause all kinds of confusion?

If you truly wish to belong to Christ then you must let him lead you and strip you of all that is not him. 

This is a time for saints and Martyrs,  fortify yourselves with prayer And penance. Keep your rosary close at hand. When Christ was rejected he did not file al law suit. He accepted the will of  his Father. It was so difficult to accept that he Sweat blood and begged his father to let this cup pass,  but in the end his love of the Father and his  love for us was so strong that in tears he accepted his fate. Do not use Ceasar to twist Gods arm to get into a community. This is the worldly thinking that has plagued our church since the Council. 

I know deeply first hand what you feel. I am deaf, I suffer from depression,and am going blind.  I was accused of very serious sins when I was a young missionary by a superior who was abusing her power I left the order to hold on to my sanity I went home to my family  but there was no family to go too. I then went to work with runaway teenagers, but in  my heart I knew my vocation was true.. 

I asked Mother to return to the society before my vows  expired I felt like Peter who had denied Jesus. I knew I might be put back with this superior. I never said a word to Mother about how I was treated. Mother told me to speak with Sister Nirmala. Sister told me not to worry because that Superior was mentally ill. I was told by Sister to come back but to the contemplative branch because my vocation was too mercy, atonement and contemplation. 

When Mother came back to visit the contemplative and active houses. I came before mother to recieve her blessing she gave it and told me to go inside. This superior was standing in the doorway and would not let me pass. Finally as the line to go inside was building up she was forced to  let me in. 

In a short ceremony mother clothed me once again with my holy habit. 

Just when I thought everything was over I started getting calls from the volunteers at the house where I was taking in the poor. 

Two of the volunteers  were a married couple with a 20 year old son recovering from cancer. They started harassing the younger volunteers and they were angry that they would now have to actually work as I  was paying all the bills. So they went to this superior and accused me of many serious sins I was getting phone calls from the other volunteers  after grand silence which upset mother. I answered hem bbecause I was told too but mother did not know that. 

I would have known none of this, as it was all going on behind me. It went as high as the bishop. How I knew something serious was happening was about 2 weeks later. I was portress for the day. And one day I opened the door and my Pastor who lived right next door to the home I had was standing there I smiled and asked him what was he doing here. He said I don't know mother gave me a call and asked m me to come see her. It was then I knew something was afoot. I was nervous but I placed it in God's hands. After what  seemed like an eternity father left. 

Mother, along with Sister Nirmala  then called me into this little a alcove. I as almost certain I was going be expelled. Instead Mother said to me and these are her exact words

"Sister, no matter what happens,  Mother and Sister Nirmala will always be behind you. Continue to follow Jesus." 

I never asked what I was accused of,, all I know is that that superior who was a regional superior was taken out of all responsibilities and sent back to the Motherhouse. 

It took a while but for the most part I have learned to forgive. If a bad Memory pops up I ask our lady to help me forgive get again and offer up a prayer. 

I could have sued for assault and many other things. But God gave me the strength to endure. Why? Because I do deeply wish to belong to him. 

My path in religious life has been very beautiful but very painful. Even here in my solitude Satan tries me. I have been a hermit for 14 years now. I love my  solitude  but there are some very hard days days when I have gone more than 3 6 hours without food or water my care taker buys it but there are times he will not bring it to me,and I am too weak to stand.  My room is dirty but there is no strength to clean I have to be very care ful in what I do  as I now have a large tumor in my spleen, there is none to talk to even if there were I an completely deaf and going blind some days I can't remember the most simple things I look at a word and wonder what it is. Then my mind will clear again. When God is hiding the stress and physical and emotional pain brings me  to  the edge of my sanity and the best I can do is to hold the rosary in one hand and the cross in the other I try to pray the our father but I often can no longer remember the words.  All I can say is PaPa please hold me. As Satan uses these times to attack me most. Slowly the pain of isolation  will disappate and I will fall asleep for an hour or two. 

Somehow I feel God wants me to share what I have learned through all these years as a religious before I die. To help others to weather  what is here now and what is to come.. To find a balance. But maybe it is only my ego, I Am not sure. All I know is that I think God has given me great graces each time I have openness my mind and heart to listen and do his will. I have fallen greatly in my life because of my anger at what some of the people in the church have done to me especially when I came down with MS. But in the end I hurt only myself and perhaps saddened the heart of God. I have atoned for it and  now I seek o only his mercy and love for all who seek him. 

Our Church is i in trouble but if you read church history, she has always had trouble because she is made up of Saint and sinners alike. Read and live the Gospel trust in God. And  pray we may find balance once again. 

Forgive the length of this post I tried to stay on topic by have digressed.

You know of my love for you. 

Tenderly 

Indwelling Trinity 

[Pax17]

IT, thank you for sharing your experiences and wisdom.

[underatree]

Lots of replies that I'm not sure are all completely on topic here, so I will try to answer the first post as best I can.

My experience is that different communities will have different requirements and qualifications for applicants, and this varies based on the different ministries, financial considerations, charism, location and character of each individual community. For instance, a congregation located in a country with universal healthcare may not consider ongoing need for a medication to be a problem, whereas a community located in (let's say) the US might.

At the same time, religious life can be extremely stressful and difficult, and a community may have concerns about a candidate's ability to adapt if she has pre-existing psychological concerns. Now there are lots of postulants without psychological problems or a history of such who leave for all sorts of reasons, so it's not as if you have a guarantee either way. 

I have been in religious life, needed to leave for reasons partly due to me and partly due to the community (this does happen, especially with new communities) and I hope to one day re-enter religious life. 

My advice to someone who desires religious life but has struggled with a psychological difficulty (such as depression or anxiety) would be to: 

gain some insight into the problem through counseling,

get on a medication if you can find one that works for your symptoms,

develop an action plan for when you sense that your symptoms are getting worse, 

do a long-term volunteer program like Jesuit Volunteer Corps or similar, so you can see how you cope with an experience of leaving your home and coming to live with people you have not chosen who will challenge and change you.

I think if you can manage that well and find it enjoyable rather than stressful you have a chance of living happily in community. 

If not, there are a growing number of lay communities and secular institutes that offer true community and the opportunity to grow in holiness. I have friends in some of these communities who find their lives deeply meaningful and satisfying. Don't knock it till you try it. They reach people who wouldn't ever approach someone in a habit. Anyway, sanctity was never about who wears the best dress!

Everyone is different in what they are able to cope with; fortunately we can all grow in our abilities. Sometimes the Lord will heal our emotions as he did St Therese on her "Christmas Day Miracle" but typically he allows us to work at it, sometimes for many years or a lifetime. And it's important to have a clear understanding of ourselves; I could desire to be an Olympic gymnast or a Navy SEAL but those things are simply not possible or realistic for me. Perhaps they are for you, and we can both give thanks to God for his gifts. The Lord will not ask the impossible and he does not create us for misery. If religious life is only going to exacerbate anxiety or depression in you, please do something else with your life! There are so many ways we can serve God; do not limit his grace to the walls of a monastery.

God bless you all.

[Indwelling Trinity]

6 minutes ago, underatree said:

Lots of replies that I'm not sure are all completely on topic here, so I will try to answer the first post as best I can.

My experience is that different communities will have different requirements and qualifications for applicants, and this varies based on the different ministries, financial considerations, charism, location and character of each individual community. For instance, a congregation located in a country with universal healthcare may not consider ongoing need for a medication to be a problem, whereas a community located in (let's say) the US might.

At the same time, religious life can be extremely stressful and difficult, and a community may have concerns about a candidate's ability to adapt if she has pre-existing psychological concerns. Now there are lots of postulants without psychological problems or a history of such who leave for all sorts of reasons, so it's not as if you have a guarantee either way. 

I have been in religious life, needed to leave for reasons partly due to me and partly due to the community (this does happen, especially with new communities) and I hope to one day re-enter religious life. 

My advice to someone who desires religious life but has struggled with a psychological difficulty (such as depression or anxiety) would be to: 

gain some insight into the problem through counseling,

get on a medication if you can find one that works for your symptoms,

develop an action plan for when you sense that your symptoms are getting worse, 

do a long-term volunteer program like Jesuit Volunteer Corps or similar, so you can see how you cope with an experience of leaving your home and coming to live with people you have not chosen who will challenge and change you.

I think if you can manage that well and find it enjoyable rather than stressful you have a chance of living happily in community. 

If not, there are a growing number of lay communities and secular institutes that offer true community and the opportunity to grow in holiness. I have friends in some of these communities who find their lives deeply meaningful and satisfying. Don't knock it till you try it. They reach people who wouldn't ever approach someone in a habit. Anyway, sanctity was never about who wears the best dress!

Everyone is different in what they are able to cope with; fortunately we can all grow in our abilities. Sometimes the Lord will heal our emotions as he did St Therese on her "Christmas Day Miracle" but typically he allows us to work at it, sometimes for many years or a lifetime. And it's important to have a clear understanding of ourselves; I could desire to be an Olympic gymnast or a Navy SEAL but those things are simply not possible or realistic for me. Perhaps they are for you, and we can both give thanks to God for his gifts. The Lord will not ask the impossible and he does not create us for misery. If religious life is only going to exacerbate anxiety or depression in you, please do something else with your life! There are so many ways we can serve God; do not limit his grace to the walls of a monastery.

God bless you all.

Amen! Very well said under a tree. Thank you. 

IndwellingTrinity 

[Antigonos]

As you know, IT, I think of you often, and pray for an easing of your condition, and the strength to cope with it.  Next time I visit the Western Wall of the Temple I will leave a prayer request for you, in a crack between the stones, as is our custom.

[Indwelling Trinity]

3 hours ago, Antigonos said:

As you know, IT, I think of you often, and pray for an easing of your condition, and the strength to cope with it.  Next time I visit the Western Wall of the Temple I will leave a prayer request for you, in a crack between the stones, as is our custom.

Good bless you and thank you. https://media.giphy.com/media/EvYHHSntaIl5m/giphy.gif

[Antigonos]

Consider yourself hugged!

[TheresaThoma]

I've mentioned this before in other threads but this is what I have found helpful in my own journey as a discerner on medication.

When contacting a community be open honest and realistic with them. What I have found helpful is to be able to share the basic details of your condition and medication. Things like what your medication is for, how you get your prescription (do you have to see a specialist), the cost, how you would handle any sort of triggers, long term care etc. This can help a community understand better and see if your medical needs are compatible with their life.  Discussing this with your doctor can also be helpful even if the doctor doesn't completely understand religious life completely they can give their opinion on whether you might be able to be in religious life. Having a professional opinion may ease any concerns the community has.

Also as underatree mentioned doing a long term service project preferably where you live in community can give you a sense of how community living and stress etc would effect you. I am on a medication and the community I am discerning with is in a remote location. The Sisters have raised some mild concerns about if something were to happen would being that far away from a hospital be an issue. I have had other community living situations and even have gone on a trip to very rural parts of Haiti and it has never been an issue or a concern for my doctors. Being able to have concrete situations that you can give as examples can also help.

Finally do not be discouraged! Some communities may say no outright others it might take some time for them to determine if you might be a good fit. I have been seriously discerning with a community for over a year now and my medication and health history have been an ongoing conversation and I expect that it will most likely continue up to when I might God willing enter. It can be frustrating but I have to remind myself that the Sisters are simply looking out for my well being and want what is best for me.

Again the only way to really know is to ask the specific community!

[kg94]

If it's any reassurance, the best thing is to be open with the congregation themselves. If you have reports from your psychiatrist and therapist that say you are stable, and when you visit, you have the capacity to live in community and the congregation feel you can fulfil whatever duties and obligations you need to, then there's no reason to say they won't let you discern. One of the ways of knowing if something is God's will is the very fact all obstacles will be removed. 

I've been on psych meds before, but I'm still allowed to discern and am journeying with Sisters. It's not the biggest deal if you put everything into context. Actually, it shows you are humble enough to seek help instead of being in denial about any issues you might have. 

Feel free to message me if you want to talk more. God bless!