One life for another?

[Anomaly]

Whether one is an atheist or believes in a god, humans are need to use their intelligence when evaluating the morality of their acts.   It’s not reasonable for someone to suddenly believe God told them to suddenly kill all unbelievers. 

mzkto is facing a very difficult and painful situation.   Yes her heart and emotions play a part, but so does reason and logic.   

The first step is to figure out if human life is valuable,  and  then if equally valuable or not. It’s terrible to be in her position, but that is the reality she has to deal with.    

Compassion, empathy, and some reasoning about identifying and applying moral principles will help deal with this difficult circumstance. 

[fides' Jack]

My condolences to all going through hard times.  I didn't see a post trying to get to the root of the question (the existence of which may or may not actually be intended by mzkto).

So, the real question of the post is, why isn't abortion moral, even when faced with extreme circumstances?  To answer this, you have to know how the Church considers whether or not any action is moral.

I'm paraphrasing this...

For any action to be moral, there are 3 considerations that must be made.  If any of these 3 are immoral, the action cannot be moral, under any additional circumstances.

1. The object chosen - this is the direct action being made.  In this case, it is killing an innocent baby.  Now, killing is sometimes permissible, and you can look in the Catechism to determine when those cases are.  However, there is no justification here, even in cases of rape and incest, or when the mother's life is in danger.  The baby does not intend harm, and so it can't be considered self-defense.  This is not moral, therefore, based on the previous statement that "if any of these 3 are immoral, the action cannot be moral", abortion is never moral.

2. The end in view or the intention - this is self explanatory.  It can be argued that those who choose abortion have a good intention, even if it's a selfish one, such as making their own lives better, or a selfless one, such as saving the life of the mother.  Since the object chosen was evil, it doesn't matter how good the intentions are.

3. The circumstances of the action - these vary in scope and size, and for some actions, can make the differences between an action being moral or immoral (i.e. voting for a lesser-of-two-evils candidate).  

There are times when it's morally permissible (though likely not moral plausible) to allow an unborn baby to die to save a mother's life.  That's not the same thing as killing the baby directly.  If you think it is the same thing, you really haven't thought through the issue, and you've likely taken on some form of philosophical errors. 

Consider this: you're being held prisoner unjustly.  Somebody comes up to you and tells you they will kill your family.  You know they have the means and the motive to do so.  They give you a chance to save them; to do so you have to commit suicide.  They tell you if you kill yourself, you save your family.  Is it morally permissible to do so?  Of course not.  Suicide is always wrong, under all circumstances (just like abortion).  If you don't kill yourself, it is not you who is killing your family, it is the murderer who actually does it.  And you bear absolutely no moral responsibility for them in that situation.  

You can't judge God for failing to live up to your own (human) notion of right and wrong.  God supersedes that.  He is above life and death, and it is His place, and not yours, to determine when someone should live or die.  For you to decide that is morally wrong.  For Him, it is absolutely His purview.  He set the rules; you can choose to abide by them, or complain about them and decide to follow your own will.  That's what this ultimately boils down to.

On 6/23/2018 at 6:58 AM, mzkto said:

The church and it's teachings are flawed, yet many think they are superior because they support what fits their ego. I am going with my heart. My heart tells me what I need to know. 

I am not superior.  I am a sinner - probably a really, really bad one.  But you must see the contradiction here: "I am following my way, and not God's, because it's what my heart tells me to do.  I decide what's right and wrong, and I am always right.  Why?  Because it feels right to me."

When times are hard, that's when having faith counts the most.  I pray I will never have to make the decision that is being argued here.  I could very easily fall and not make the decision that I'm arguing for.  Why?  Because I'm flawed human, and I sin, even when I know it's a sin.  Does that make it OK?  Not by a long shot...

[Anomaly]

On 6/23/2018 at 8:16 AM, mzkto said:

That would be my point. Why is one life more valuable than the other? Why would the unborn child's life--a life we cannot guarantee to be a happy one, a healthy one, or without abuse, be the more valuable life to spare? I love children and this happens to be my daughter. My daughter whom I love more than anything is ill with kidney disease and has been treated for 10 months so far and was starting to show big improvements in her health when she discovered she was pregnant.  Yesterday, her doctor told her proceeding with the pregnancy could speed up the kidney disease causing renal failure.  If any of you have children, you may see another point of view. Losing your child so that one may (possibly) live. There is also the possibility of birth defects with the disease with the strong prednisone and medicine my daughter has been taking.  The kidney specialists told her over and over to not get pregnant but it happened. I am not against babies in any way. What I am against is someone telling me my daughter's life is not important to the Catholic Church-only the baby that may or may not survive and may or may not have a life with defects and struggles to live with. 

What is your daughters’s opinion on the matter?

Could she love her daughter in a similar manner you love your daughter?

Have you demonstrated how fiercely  a mother can love with your powerful love?

Do you love your daughter even though she’s ill, is unhappy, may have made a mistake in getting pregnant?

I don’t think you really are mad at religion, or even God. 

I think you’re mad, upset, hurt, disappointed, sad, fearful, and overwhelmed at the situation you, your daughter, your grandchild, and your family, are all in.   

Of course you would prefer your daughter would continue to get better and didn’t have added risks to her health.  There are no guarantees for any of us, only acts of kindness and hope.  Don’t act against either.  

[mzkto]

This has nothing to do with being mad..as you suggest....please stop making it worse. If someone can tell me how to delete my account I would be glad to do so.

[Luigi]

There is no way to delete an account. The only thing you can do is stop checking the page - and if you receive e-mail notifications, you can change that so you don't get them any more. 

Go in peace. 

[tinytherese]

I'm sorry that your family is going through this. I'll pray for you all.

With all do respect though, this is the Debate Table, so expect to have people with different opinions than you. Simply disagreeing with someone is not arrogant. If someone phrases what they disagree about in a disrespectful manner, than can be arrogant. The posters on this thread have not acted this way.

I'd be happy to respectfully respond to the questions you have, but even if you didn't want to delete your account, I don't get the impression that you'd be open to what I have to say.

Years ago, when being sexually abused by my dad I was afraid that I'd get pregnant. For a brief time I was tempted on planning to have an abortion if it came to that despite my prior views on the issue. I was afraid of being silly sally-shamed, causing scandal, and looking like a hypocrit. It didn't take long for me to come to the conclusion that I wouldn't do this if I did conceive. I'd like to share my story and respond to the other points you brought up.

Edited June 26, 2018 by tinytherese
Needed to be Revised