Vatican: Argentine bishop at Holy See under investigation

[Jack4]

4 hours ago, tinytherese said:

the power that comes from abusing people

Can you explain that, please - how abuse gives "power"? I'm not disagreeing with you, I only want to understand.

4 hours ago, Josh said:

Its around 90 percent male on male. With most being teenager's. It's without question a homosexual problem. Like I said nothing but love for gay people. But they aren't called to be priests and be in seminaries with a bunch of other gays. Just like it wouldn't be good for me to be in a dorm full of attractive prostitutes.

There is a Roman Curia Instruction saying that "the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture". http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

There is a Roman Curia Instruction saying that "the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture". http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

I will always admit when I'm wrong. So according to this Seminarians could be gay as long as it's not deep seated?  

[Jack4]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

I will always admit when I'm wrong. So according to this Seminarians could be gay as long as it's not deep seated?  

The document gives the answer:

Quote

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. 

 

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FYI I don't know how well this Instruction (deep-seated homosexuals not admitted to the priesthood) is implemented.

 

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I will quote one more sentence from the Instruction: "One must in no way overlook the negative consequences [sic] that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies."

[Guest]

If you're gay you're gay. You can't pray it away. Most people who are homosexual know it from a young age. I knew I liked girls in the first grade. I remember the first girl I had a crush on.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Guest

[Jack4]

@Josh

"Iknew I liked girls in the first grade"

O dear! I didn't "like" girls in fist grade! I started to "like" them only from puberty. I do not count your experience to be universal - I have good reason not to. The distinction made about "deep seated" might be related to this. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

O dear! I didn't "like" girls in fist grade!

Laughing............seems you really did not like girls in first grade............(first/fist = typo freudian slip?) LOL -  I am only joking Jack.

I would like to know the definition of "deep seated" too (in relation to homosexual tendencies).  How does The Church define "deep seated" i.e. when does a homosexual tendency become deep seated?  

Even if a person is defined as not having deep seated homosexual tendencies, is it still an impediment to Holy Orders?  If a homosexual person can be admitted to Orders and/or Consecrated Life, is there a risk that the tendency could become deep seated (whatever that means) later in life?

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

@Josh

"Iknew I liked girls in the first grade"

O dear! I didn't "like" girls in fist grade! I started to "like" them only from puberty. I do not count your experience to be universal - I have good reason not to. The distinction made about "deep seated" might be related to this. 

Puberty can be as late as 14 for guys. So you didn't know you liked girls until then? I think it's not the case for most. I didn't lust after the girl in 1st grade but I liked her. I asked her to be my "girlfriend" and she said yes. This didn't happen with a guy. I didn't ask "Bob" to be my boyfriend. I don't think this was random chance. I think its becuase I like girls. Someone who is a gay male usually knows from a young age they like guys. 

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Laughing............seems you really did not like girls in first grade............(first/fist = typo freudian slip?) LOL -  I am only joking Jack.

Typo, LOL 

Quote

 

I would like to know the definition of "deep seated" too (in relation to homosexual tendencies).  How does The Church define "deep seated" i.e. when does a homosexual tendency become deep seated?  

Even if a person is defined as not having deep seated homosexual tendencies, is it still an impediment to Holy Orders?  If a homosexual person can be admitted to Orders and/or Consecrated Life, is there a risk that the tendency could become deep seated (whatever that means) later in life?

 

The document says this in contrast to "deep-seated":

Quote

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. 

The Instruction does not go any further than this. Discretion is ultimately called for. 

49 minutes ago, Josh said:

Puberty can be as late as 14 for guys. So you didn't know you liked girls until then?

No one in the whole school (or even in other schools, to the best of my knowledge) liked or proposed to anyone in a romantic way. The way you phrased your question seems strange  - I did not "know" that I (already, albeit unconsciously) liked women; I started to like with a liking with which I have liked before, if you know what I mean. This started around when my puberty did.

 

Quote

I think it's not the case for most. I didn't lust after the girl in 1st grade but I liked her. I asked her to be my "girlfriend" and she said yes. This didn't happen with a guy. I didn't ask "Bob" to be my boyfriend. I don't think this was random chance. I think its becuase I like girls. Someone who is a gay male usually knows from a young age they like guys. 

Cute as your story may be, it was due to imitation of what you saw in entertainment media, not because of sexual orientation. 

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

 

Cute as your story may be, it was due to imitation of what you saw in entertainment media, not because of sexual orientation. 

My story is not intended to be cute. I liked this girl. I still remember her name. I remember specific details. This was not because of entertainment media. It's becuase I had an inclination to like girls. You saying otherwise is irrelevant. At around 12 or 13 that inclination turned into me wanting to have sex with them or activities that led to that. I stayed a virgin well past that age. Anyhow we will agree to disagree. I knew from a very young age I liked girls. Gay people I've got to know tell me they had the same experience except the inclination was towards the same sex. Just curious do you think homosexuals develope the inclination because of abuse, neglect ect? Do you believe it can be prayed away or removed with treatment ect?

[Jack4]

I did not say that your story was intended to be cute, only that I found it cute.

My experiences are very different from yours. I'd wager that no two people in my school (upto 18 years of age) have had sex with each other. 

Sexuality is a very complex topic. I do not know how homosexuals become homosexuals. Nor do I know whether the sexual orientation/inclination can be removed/changed by a particular treatment/method. 

However, since God gives grace to avoid all sin, and hence all temptations can be overcome, all commandments obeyed; I believe - as a Catholic - that it is possible for a homosexual person (or any person for that matter) to live without sin of any kind by cooperating with God's grace, as taught by Pope John Paul.