Cardinal Pell - The Grounds for His Appeal

[KnightofChrist]

I've made no defense of pedophiles. I asked two questions, answered one my questions, and provided a link at your request. Only, it seems, to be gravely insulted. 

Pedophiles should be hung by the neck until dead. If Pell is in fact guilty of that grave crime he should be hung by the neck. 

Also I was under the impression you said people can have different opinions about this case. Now if someone has a different opinion about Pell's trial(s) they are defending pedophiles? 

As for which trial we should take as true. I answer I do not know. I'm not so quick as to reject the existence of the 10-2 trial. I've seen that reported on multiple news outlets with various political slants. I know you disagree, but no need to personally insult me. 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by KnightofChrist

[cruciatacara]

57 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I've made no defense of pedophiles. I asked two questions, answered one my questions, and provided a link at your request. Only, it seems, to be gravely insulted. 

Pedophiles should be hung by the neck until dead. If Pell is in fact guilty of that grave crime he should be hung by the neck. 

Also I was under the impression you said people can have different opinions about this case. Now if someone has a different opinion about Pell's trial(s) they are defending pedophiles? 

As for which trial we should take as true. I answer I do not know. I'm not so quick as to reject the existence of the 10-2 trial. I've seen that reported on multiple news outlets with various political slants. I know you disagree, but no need to personally insult me. 

 

I certainly meant no insult or attack on you personally @KnightofChrist . I guess because I was responding to you, it might seem that way but I was actually just musing on why it seems so many people want to defend Pell when he is no different than any other convicted pedophile. I didn't mean you personally so I apologise to you if it came across that way. Pedophiles make me very angry  because I have been very involved in child advocacy for a long time, so perhaps I am more passionate in my posts than I need to be. As for the existence of the 10-2 trial - I think there might have been confusion over what the actual vote was - was it 6-6 or 10-2 or something else? I have read 6-6 but you say you have read 10-2.... in this article, all that the journalist will say is that the first jury couldn't reach a majority vote of 11-1. That might have caused some confusion as to what the vote actually was.

Quote

 

Pell’s first trial began in August 2018. Known as the “cathedral trial” in legal and journalistic circles, it lasted for five weeks.

After a week of deliberations the jurors could not reach an unanimous verdict, or even a majority verdict of 11 to one. Their distress was clear. Five of them were in tears.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/27/inside-the-pell-trial-we-sat-in-court-for-months-forbidden-from-reporting-a-word

 

As for Pell, I know you don't believe it, but there have only been two trials so far (see article link above), but we weren't told of them until after the second trial verdict - due to Australia's tough gag order laws with regard to the law. They heard the 1990s cases first (Cathedral trial) and were then going to hear the 1970s cases (Ballarat trial). Until the Ballarat trial  had been heard, nothing about the Cathedral trial  was supposed to be released to the media because it would poison the jury for the Ballarat trial. Once the prosecutors decided to drop the Ballarat trial though (because of the death of a victim and some evidence being suppressed by the court), the press could provide the verdict for the Cathedral trial. That's the one that had the hung jury first and the unanimous guilty verdict second. 

I have been living in Melbourne and Ballarat both and have been very aware of the trials and outcomes, almost obsessively so because of my advocacy background (and living locally)  and this scandal within the Church has made things so horrible, not only for the victims, but also for faithful Catholics who feel betrayed by those in authority for allowing this evil to grow and flourish through cover-ups. Parents of victims have been devastated of course but even ordinary Catholics have felt conflicted between  their inherent respect for clergy, and their feelings of disgust at so many priests being revealed as sexual offenders and the hierarchy acting as enablers through cover-ups.

Anyway, nothing about my post was personally directed at you. I really do understand that this has caused great torment for a lot of Catholics, and that is why so many people are still in denial about Pell. But I can tell you that Catholics in Ballarat, and a lot in Melbourne too, who know Pell, wouldn't welcome him into their community. He isn't seen as much of a shepherd to a lot of his flock here in Victoria.

---------

One of the Ballarat victims was interviewed here:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/george-pell-to-be-sued-over-alleged-1970s-sexual-abuse-in-ballarat 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by cruciatacara

[Guest]

Aust Bishops Conference reaction as well as statement out of Rome (https://www.vaticannews.va/en/church/news/2019-02/cardinal-pell-convicted-by-australian-court.html

Pope Francis confirms that Cardinal Pell cannot exercise public ministry https://www.vaticannews.va/en/church/news/2019-02/pope-confirms-card-pell-prohibited-from-public-ministry.html

 

 

[Guest]

Cardinal Pell to be sentenced tomorrow.  It is Tuesday 12.3.19 at 5.04pm here just now.  His appeal will be held in June 2019.

[Guest]

Cardinal Pell has been sentenced to six years jail.  There is a non parole period of 3  years and 8 months.  Commentary is that it might be a life sentence for Cardinal Pell.  He is not in good health and jail will be a real shock to his normal way of living previously.  Stress, his doctor has said, does exacerbate his health situation including his heart problems

I watched the live pre sentence comments by the judge and they might appear on youtube at some point.  Media at this point, 10.58am on Wednesday 13.3.19, is being broadcasted live.  Undoubtedly what we are viewing live today will find its way in full to youtube in due course.

The media is now focusing too on the reaction from the Vatican re the future of Cardinal Pell.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Sorry about the video in my previous post, I forgot it was live. 

The following comes from YouTube and is the quite lengthy pre sentence comments by the judge, the final minutes are the actual sentence.

 

Video of judge passing the actual sentence and the last few minutes of the above video.

 

General media comment is that we probably wont hear much from the Vatican as to the future of Cardinal Pell until after his Appeal in early June.

Edited March 13, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Jack4]

On 3/6/2019 at 5:40 AM, cruciatacara said:

I don't understand why so many people are defending a convicted pedophile and now registered sex offender - does this happen with other convicted pedophiles? It seems only to be happening in this case because of Pell's status and importance in the Church.

 

I quote from a person who defends +Pell. You can read his reasons in his own words:

Quote

 

During the retrial, the defense demonstrated that, in order to sustain the charge that Pell had accosted and sexually abused two choirboys after Mass one Sunday, ten improbable things would have had to have happened and all within ten minutes:

• Archbishop Pell abandoned his decades-long practice of greeting congregants outside the cathedral after Mass.

• Pell, who was typically accompanied by a master of ceremonies or sacristan when he was vested for Mass, entered the carefully controlled space of the vesting sacristy alone.

• The master of ceremonies, charged with helping the archbishop disrobe while removing his own liturgical vestments, had disappeared.

• The sacristan, charged with the care of the locked sacristy, had also disappeared.

• The sacristan did not go back and forth between the sacristy and the cathedral sanctuary, removing missals and Mass vessels, as was his responsibility and consistent practice.

• The altar servers, like the sacristan, simply disappeared, rather than helping the sacristan clear the sanctuary by bringing liturgical vessels and books back to the sacristy.

• The priests who concelebrated the Mass with Pell were not in the sacristy disrobing after the ceremony.

• At least 40 people did not notice that two choirboys left the post-Mass procession.

• Two choirboys entered the sacristy, started gulping altar wine, and were accosted and abused by Archbishop Pell — while the sacristy door was open and the archbishop was in full liturgical vestments.

• The abused choirboys then entered the choir room, through two locked doors, without anyone noticing, and participated in a post-Mass rehearsal; no one asked why they had been missing for ten minutes.

Before the trial, one of the complainants died, having told his mother that he had never been assaulted. During the trial, there was no corroboration of the surviving complainant’s charges. Other choirboys (now, of course, grown), as well as the choir director and his assistant, the adult members of the choir, the master of ceremonies, and the sacristan all testified, and from their testimony we learn the following: that no one recalled any choirboys bolting from the procession after Mass; that none of those in the immediate vicinity of the alleged abuse noticed anything; that indeed nothing could have happened in a secured space without someone noticing; and that there was neither gossip nor rumor about any such dramatic and vile incident afterward.

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/why-the-case-against-cardinal-george-pell-doesnt-stand-up/ 

[cruciatacara]

@Jack4 I say justice has been done. If he is successful in his appeal, then you will say justice has been done. Either way, at least one person will think justice has been done. I have no more to say on the subject.

[Guest]

 

The appeal is set for 5th June 2019

[Jack4]

8 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

@Jack4 I say justice has been done. If he is successful in his appeal, then you will say justice has been done. Either way, at least one person will think justice has been done. I have no more to say on the subject.

 

You asked why people defend him. I gave you an answer from one defender. 

What really matters is whether objective justice is done, regardless of my opinions. 

The Newman-Achilli trial shows that anti-Catholic bias of the judge(s) may lead to innocents being convicted, at least in some cases. 

[Guest]

It is becoming difficult to discern if a particular source is reliable and not completely biased in one direction or another.  Insofar as I am aware, The Financial Review is a reliable source, while I keep in mind that we are all biased, research would seem to indicate.

Financial Review: "Is George Pell Innocent?"

The above title is a bit of a concern possibly indicating bias.  I must admit after reading the article, I am inclined to think that I just might be correct.  It is very difficult to be sure.  Bias towards +Pell's innocence might mean that facts speaking to his innocence are reported in an article, rather than facts that speak to his guilt.

Be whatever as it may, my Faith is in Jesus.  If Cardinal Pell is innocent and falsely jailed, then one would hope he would have his own Faith in Jesus. He would be at an impasse with no alternative but to suffer whatever he is to suffer, including the decision out of The Vatican.  He cannot go over nor around nor under the impasse - he can only walk through it, endure it, with Faith and trust in Jesus.

If he is guilty, then he will justly do his sentence and whatever the Vatican decides.......may he fully repent and save his soul I pray along with daily prayer for victims and all deeply affected by this crisis.   Again, be all that as it may, thank God that it has come into the light - all of it I hope.

I am praying too that those reforms in His Church needed by Jesus will be effected - and very hopefully, very soon.

____________________

Quote

 

http://www.iccdinstitute.org/home/impasse-and-the-dark-night/

"Impasse and The Dark Night"(Author Sr. Constance Fitzgerald OCD)

IMPASSE
By impasse, I mean that there is no way out of, no way around, no rational escape from, what imprisons one, no possibilities in the situation. In a true impasse, every normal manner of acting is brought to a standstill, and ironically, impasse is experienced not only in the problem itself but also in any solution rationally attempted. Every logical solution remains unsatisfying, at the very least. The whole life situation suffers a depletion, has the word limits written upon it. Dorothee Soelle describes it as “unavoidable suffering,” an apt symbol of which is physical imprisonment, with its experience of being squeezed into a confined space. Any movement out, any next step, is canceled, and the most dangerous temptation is to give up, to quit, to surrender to cynicism and despair, in the face of the disappointment, disenchantment, hopelessness, and loss of meaning that encompass one.

It is not difficult to imagine how such attitudes affect self-image and sense of worth and turn back on the person or group to engender a sense of failure, to reinforce a realization-not always exact–that their own mistakes have contributed to the ambiguity.
Moreover, intrinsic to the experience of impasse is the impression and feeling of rejection and lack of assurance from those on whom one counts. At the deepest levels of impasse, one sees the support systems on which one has depended pulled out from under one and asks if anything, if anyone, is trustworthy. Powerlessness overtakes the person or group caught in impasse and opens into the awareness that no understandable defense is possible. This is how impasse looks to those who are imprisoned within it. It is the experience of disintegration, of deprivation of worth, and it has many faces, personal and societal.

 

 

[Guest]

I have seen a video of Victorian Premier, Daniel Andrews, stating that the government was looking closely at the "Melbourne Response" set up by Cardinal Pell when he was Archbishop of Melbourne.  Mr. Andrews stated that the capped amount and documents signed by victims waiving right to civil action seemed "out of balance" and the government was looking at these specifically.  I was blocked from posting the video.

If the government does waive the documents signed, then undoubtedly the crisis in Australia will worsen.  To my mind, the important matter is that the whole truth sees the light of day.  Again, to my mind, because of these abuse scandals, The Church ought to be struggling to pay for food, water and electricity.  The Church should be bankrupt.  What price a child?

 

Quote

 

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/03/14/14/21/news-melbourne-premier-praises-chief-justice-calls-on-catholic-church-to-focus-on-wellbeing-of-victimsThe government is actively considering the current state of the “Melbourne Response,” a scheme established by then Archbishop of Melbourne George Pell.  

“To my mind and to the view of the Attorney General and in light of these most recent matters, the intersection of the Melbourne response and capped pay outs and the operation of the national redress scheme doesn’t sit quite right,” Mr Andrews said.

“There may be a need for us to intervene there.”

Pell was the architect of the Melbourne Response, a compensation scheme victims’ advocate argue was designed to minimise the legal and financial liabilities of the Catholic Church.

Under the scheme, compensation payments were significantly capped (with an average payout of $36,100) and victims were forced to sign a deed of settlement waiving their right to take civil action.

 

 

[Guest]

It's ******* cringe worthy to hear Pee Wee Herman, Patrick Madrid, Patrick Coffin, and many others proclaim Pells innocence and paint the jury as liars who threw the case. And the victim as a fraud. I can barely handle the leaders of the Church protecting and covering this evil. But when I then have to hear lay catholics defend it as well im this close to joining a new church. And not looking back and sleeping very well at night.

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Guest

[cruciatacara]

@Josh It has caused me a lot of anger and frustration as well, watching as Catholics try to question the jury because they simply can't believe - or don't want to believe that Pell could do such a thing. I know the man so I can accept the verdict of the jury a lot easier I suppose. I try to understand how confused some Catholics must be, but denial isn't the answer. This isn't the first time there has been a shadow over Pell about child abuse, but this is the first and only time it has gone to trial. The first jury was so conflicted that some of them were crying when they announced that they couldn't reach a verdict. To me, it is astounding that the second jury voted unanimously to convict because it is such a contentious issue. But that also tells me that the victim's testimony utterly convinced them that he was telling the truth. 

I think a lot of Catholics have come to accept that there are pedophile priests but a pedophile Cardinal? They either can't or won't accept that such a thing is possible. I am sure there is also fear involved because if they admit that Pell is guilty, then they might begin to question their faith as well. It takes a brave person to admit the wrongdoing and yet stay strong in one's faith.

One of the things that I can't forgive Pell (and some of the rest of the hierarchy) for is the cover-ups. Pell did everything he could with the 'Melbourne Response' to cover up the abuse in Melbourne to protect the church. To me, he should have been protecting the victims. But it makes more sense now that Pell has been convicted as one of the abusers.

Don't feel alone, Josh, you aren't the only one who feels as you do. These are tough times.

[Guest]

What has happened, Josh, is absolutely horrific - hardly words sufficient to describe.  But we remain The Church Jesus promised would withstand Hell's attacks "the gates of Hell shall not prevail".  And this is an attack by Hell for sure.  If anything is a test of our Faith and trust in Jesus, this is certainly a major  one.  But it is not Jesus who has let us down.  It is not He who has sexually abused little children.  It is not He who has tried to cover up the crimes.

For a very long time now, years, my Faith has been in Jesus alone.  Not in our leadership while I acknowledge that we have more faithful good priests than the other kind.

I can no longer walk down the street proud to be Catholic in a human sense.  That is a personal test of my own.

"Put not your trust in princes,

nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

(Psalm 146 - a Psalm in the Divine Office)

Edited March 17, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Gary david]

There is much to be agreed with here. I have felt the same due to circustances within the church from the top down. And is difficult to walk with pride. I used to but not any more. Jesus is the cornerstone of the church, He never changes, unlike man, so as you I trust in Jesus. None of this has lessened my faith, if anything it has strenghened it. I am more than certain there are many good and faithful priests, but to be honest I dont look up to them with the reverence i used to only because now I dont know who is who. Thats a problem that I must wrestle with becuase of my human nature. I must not judge, I know that. I guess i need to process all that has happened. This has been hard for me to fathom. To be a catholic from birth, things have changed so much that it is hard to put it all into proper respective.

  Well this is how I feel about this.  God bless.....

Edited March 17, 2019 by Gary david
Typo

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Gary david said:

There is much to be agreed with here. I have felt the same due to circustances within the church from the top down. And is difficult to walk with pride. I used to but not any more. Jesus is the cornerstone of the church, He never changes, unlike man, so as you I trust in Jesus. None of this has lessened my faith, if anything it has strenghened it. I am more than certain there are many good and faithful priests, but to be honest I dont look up to them with the reverence i used to only because now I dont know who is who. Thats a problem that I must wrestle with becuase of my human nature. I must not judge, I know that. I guess i need to process all that has happened. This has been hard for me to fathom. To be a catholic from birth, things have changed so much that it is hard to put it all into proper respective.

  Well this is how I feel about this.  God bless.....

Once upon a time, one could say with pride that I am a practising Catholic, nowadays I am a little tense in stating it because of the abuse crisis and the reaction I sometimes get.  I thought your use of the term "proper perspective" was an excellent and apt use of words. 

It is the really sad and illogical conclusion of some, that the abuse crisis condemns the whole Catholic Church and all Catholics.  It is illogical and yet understandable.  But far more than any tension I might feel, my heart goes out to our very good priests.  Most of all to the victims of this crisis.  I have concluded that I can offer anything I might suffer as a very tiny act of reparation for abused children.  To ask with sadness and humility that they might be somehow comforted.  I think if we have even an ounce of empathy, to put ourselves into the shoes of those children and something of the sickening revulsion of their experience comes home.

I am 73 years of age and pre and post Vatican II - a Catholic from  birth - and indeed how very much things have changed and with much thankfulness not everything is negative.  It is quite understandable that this crisis is hard to process and I need to give myself time to do so (a journey) including that I might feel differently about our priests than how I used to feel, and that needs time too.  I have a mixture of emotions difficult to untangle including sadness for our priests.   Much earlier in my life, I had priests and religious on very high pedestals - I have learnt to have the vocation on very high pedestals but not necessarily those called to these vocations.  They are just as human as the rest of us and I have learnt to let them be human but certainly not abusers of children.  They have the great Graces of their vocation, but how they respond is their quite human choice.  One of the reasons I chose to leave monastic life in my forties was because I refused to regard myself as somehow intrinsically uniquely blest and different, more special, than all the rest : 

"Does he thank the servant because he did what he was told? So you also, when you have done everything commanded of you, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty." (Luke Chapter 17)

I regard every single person as chosen by God for something special, unique, and granted all the Graces necessary to fulfill that call and vocation and no matter the vocation, no matter the duties of the vocation.  "All is Grace" (St Therese of Lisieux)

To my way of thought, judging others is assessing and passing sentence.  However, I do need to assess where persons of all rank fit into my life and that is all it is, assessment related to my life - without passing any sort of moral judgement.

Our Lady, Untier of Knots, please pray for us all.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, please grant us Grace to process all as You would have us process.  Amen.

[Gary david]

How long did you live a monastic life?

  Didnt Jesus say to leave his priests alone or His elect? I cant recall where i read that, maybe sister Faustinas diary, im not sure. Jesus said He will judge them accordingly. They hold much responsibility regarding the faith and souls of so many. I can see why, especially now. I have also stated to others how difficult it must be for any catholic priest of true faith to practice at this time. I know how I feel about whats going on, I cannot even imagine what it might be like for them. I also now wonder how long things like this have been going on. Maybe i shouldnt even go there but that thought has gone through my mind and most likely am not alone in this. 

  Well it is good to be able to share our thoughts regarding this in a way that we can learn and share thoughts and feelings about this. I consider this to be a blessing.

  Thank you for sharing your thoughts. God bless you......

 

[Guest]

I was in monastic life in my forties for a very short time indeed.  It was long enough for me.  I left not because of monastic life per se which I still highly treasure, rather I left partly because of the formation program in the community I entered and other matters important to me personally related to that particular community.  In short, I had no vocation to monastic life as lived in that community.

Indeed, God will judge us all, including priests, in due time.  Meanwhile, we are right in my book to question leadership on earth of The Church - in view of what has happened and is happening and has been happening it seems for over 40 years that we know about.  In my estimation, we would be very wrong not to question leadership and to ask for honesty, straightforwardness and transparency, which to date, I don't think even now we are getting from leadership.  It has to be a dialogue exchange in which both leadership and laity are willing to come out of dialogue in the process of change.  Partly, the abuse crisis has come about because of leadership.  It is not a problem within the laity but of our priesthood including in religious life.  The solution will involve laity I think.  Clericalism which is being blamed for the crisis has two faces.  The first is how those in Holy Orders regard themselves personally.  The second face is a problem flowing from the first and how generally we think about those in Holy Orders.

I don't think even now leadership 'gets' our anxiety........for ourselves and for our children, for the future of The Church which will involve our children.  They just don't get it.  It is not neurotic anxiety but more so existential anxiety.

Quote

 

1 Peter, Chapter 5: "So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time. Cast all your worries upon him because he cares for you.Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour. Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.

The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ (Jesus) will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little. To him be dominion forever. Amen.

 

It is indeed a blessing in my book to be able to share our honest thoughts............an example of the internet being used for quite positive and good reasons.

May The Good Lord bless you and yours also, Gary...........Regards - Barb

[Guest]

Cardinal Pell Timeline: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal-george-pell-a-timeline