Righteousness Based On Scripture

[j_calvin]

There is an agreement in all the Holy Scripture; of the Old and New Testament. The doctrine which was contained in the law has been expounded so familiarily to us by the apostles since Jesus Christ that we cannot say we must do this or that, but we must confine ourselves to that which was commanded from the beginning. God has made known His Will in such clear terms, and hath given so many reasons why we should believe it, that we must be convinced of its truth, unless we are monsters in wickedness. Therefore, if we will profit by the Holy Scripture, we must study holiness of life, knowing that God will not be served after our own fancy; for He hath given us a certain rule whereby we should regulate our lives, and such a one as cannot be found fault with. Let us then direct our hearts, thoughts and affections, to that which is contained in the Holy Scripture; and then the heavenly judge will receive us. We must be the more induced to these things, because our good God draweth so nigh, and setteth forth His will in such a plain manner to us, that we cannot excuse ourselves, unless we cleave wholly to Him.

[PedroX]

Jean C.,

Nice quote, is that from the "Institutes"?

peace...

[j_calvin]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jun 29 2004, 05:28 PM'] Jean C.,

Nice quote, is that from the "Institutes"?

peace... [/quote]
This would be from The Mystery of Godliness. Sin is running rampart in our world today and my thoughts are the bible hold the key in both realizing it and admonishing it.

Jeff brother says that Calvin believed in double predestination but I am not sure the context in which he is referring.

Peace to you,

Rick

[PedroX]

J. Calvin,

First, welcome to PhatMass. It has been a long time, if ever, that we had an intelligent "Calvinist" here.

I am in totall agreement that Scripture is vital in both identifying and admonishing sin. Where we would differ, I believe, is the role that Tradition (as handed down from the Apostles and Church Fathers) plays in this as well.

Double predestination is a term for the classic Calvinist belief that God both predestines some for Heaven, and some for Hell. It has kind of an ugly reputation in these parts, especially as the evidence for such doctrine is scant to none in the Early Church Fathers, and has been specifically condemned by the Magisterium.

Good to have you here. I am a former Presbyterian (PCA) and value and respect much in the classic reformed tradition.

peace...

[j_calvin]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jun 29 2004, 05:45 PM'] J. Calvin,

First, welcome to PhatMass. It has been a long time, if ever, that we had an intelligent "Calvinist" here.

I am in totall agreement that Scripture is vital in both identifying and admonishing sin. Where we would differ, I believe, is the role that Tradition (as handed down from the Apostles and Church Fathers) plays in this as well.

Double predestination is a term for the classic Calvinist belief that God both predestines some for Heaven, and some for Hell. It has kind of an ugly reputation in these parts, especially as the evidence for such doctrine is scant to none in the Early Church Fathers, and has been specifically condemned by the Magisterium.

Good to have you here. I am a former Presbyterian (PCA) and value and respect much in the classic reformed tradition.

peace... [/quote]
Predestination if taken out of context and looked at the wrong angle could be viewed as God is a tyrant and dooms some to hell. When looked at through this point view that God knows who is going to take His grace for their salvation God knows that already, God also knows who through presumption and indolence those who will refuse His grace and ultimately wind up in Hell unfortunately. God's knows all and His justice is inevitable.

[Aloysius]

the way you explain it sounds more like Catholic doctrine on predestination to me.

[j_calvin]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jun 29 2004, 05:45 PM'] J. Calvin,

First, welcome to PhatMass. It has been a long time, if ever, that we had an intelligent "Calvinist" here.

I am in totall agreement that Scripture is vital in both identifying and admonishing sin. Where we would differ, I believe, is the role that Tradition (as handed down from the Apostles and Church Fathers) plays in this as well.

Double predestination is a term for the classic Calvinist belief that God both predestines some for Heaven, and some for Hell. It has kind of an ugly reputation in these parts, especially as the evidence for such doctrine is scant to none in the Early Church Fathers, and has been specifically condemned by the Magisterium.

Good to have you here. I am a former Presbyterian (PCA) and value and respect much in the classic reformed tradition.

peace... [/quote]
Oh yeah thanks PedroX it is good to meet you too.

[j_calvin]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 29 2004, 06:14 PM'] the way you explain it sounds more like Catholic doctrine on predestination to me. [/quote]
Really hmmm, interesting.

[Aloysius]

Okay, I always just get confused when we discuss this, but I always thought

calvinist teaching taught that God decides who's going to hell and who's going to heaven, free will means nothing because God decides who's going to heaven and who's going to hell, you do good only because you are hoping you're part of the elect, the good you do cannot in any way effect your salvation.

and Catholic teaching taught that God foreknows who will use the free will He gave them to accept Him, in day to day life we must persevere to the end but God exists outside of time and thus knows who will persevere to the end and who will not. The Elect are those who will persevere to the end, this is known only to God, people working out their salvation in fear and trembling through enacting their God-given free will can hope that they are part of the elect. Those who are going to hell are those who will not persevere to the end, God foreknows that they will in the end reject Him and thus does not know them as being in Eternity with Him as He knows the Elect.

[j_calvin]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 29 2004, 06:24 PM'] Okay, I always just get confused when we discuss this, but I always thought

calvinist teaching taught that God decides who's going to hell and who's going to heaven, free will means nothing because God decides who's going to heaven and who's going to hell, you do good only because you are hoping you're part of the elect, the good you do cannot in any way effect your salvation.

and Catholic teaching taught that God foreknows who will use the free will He gave them to accept Him, in day to day life we must persevere to the end but God exists outside of time and thus knows who will persevere to the end and who will not. The Elect are those who will persevere to the end, this is known only to God, people working out their salvation in fear and trembling through enacting their God-given free will can hope that they are part of the elect. Those who are going to hell are those who will not persevere to the end, God foreknows that they will in the end reject Him and thus does not know them as being in Eternity with Him as He knows the Elect. [/quote]
Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Virtually every Christian church believes that, because this concept is so clearly taught in Scripture.

Paul refers to Jacob and Esau. Before they were even born, before they had done any good or evil, God decreed in advance that the elder would serve the younger: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated." The point there is that God had chosen certain benefits for one of those two before they were even born.

The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in. As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically. The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Some commentary on Catholic predestination:
[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html"]http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html[/url]
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.cpats.org/CPATSAnswerDirectory/Answers_to_Questions/2000_08AugustQuestions/2000AugCatholicViewTowardsPredestination.cfm"]http://www.cpats.org/CPATSAnswerDirectory/...destination.cfm[/url]

[j_calvin]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 29 2004, 08:30 PM'] Some commentary on Catholic predestination:
[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html"]http://www.catholicsource.net/Predestination.html[/url]
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.cpats.org/CPATSAnswerDirectory/Answers_to_Questions/2000_08AugustQuestions/2000AugCatholicViewTowardsPredestination.cfm"]http://www.cpats.org/CPATSAnswerDirectory/...destination.cfm[/url] [/quote]
I like links to:

A Defense of Calvinism
[url="http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm"]http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm[/url]

Augustine & The Pelagian Controversy: The Origin & Nature of Pelgagianism [url="http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=461"]http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=461[/url]

God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men (Romans 9:18) - Jonathan Edwards
[url="http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=424"]http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=424[/url]

Expitiation - A Sermon (No. 561) - Charles H. Spurgeon
[url="http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=618"]http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=618[/url]

I lean more on the Calvinistic Theology of Jonathan Edwards.

Peace,

Rick

[Guest JeffCR07]

hey calvin, Welcome! (sorry I didn't get to that earlier, lol, oops)

To clear up some things about what I have said before: Cavlin himself developed the doctrine of "Double Predestination," which follows the following model:

1.) God is both Omnipotent and All-Knowing
2.) God is Eternal

From these two points, he concluded the following: If God is All-Knowing, than he knows all the decisions that we will make in our life. If God is Eternal, then everything He knows, He must know before you or I are born. If God is Omnipotent, then ha can never be wrong, nor can anything "overpower" Him. Calvin struggled very hard to reconsile these things. In his mind, if God willed for a person to be saved, then they cannot "overpower" God, that is, God makes them be saved. Because God is eternal, that means that God "made" them to be saved, from the moment of their creation. That having been established, Calvin then went on to work out the "flip-side" of the coin. If people cannot overpower God, then those people in Hell (or those who will be in Hell) must not have been "made to be saved" at the moment of their creation. Thus Calvin's theory of Double Predestination concludes that the "elect" are predestined to be saved (given the necessary Grace) from the moment they are created, while the un-elect are not provided with that Grace and so fall into Hell.

The Catholic view is fundamentally different. It agrees with Calvin in all of the principal propositions ( - God is All-Knowing, - God is Eternal, - God cannot be "overpowered" because God is Omnipotent)

However, the difference comes primarily in one facet of the issue: that is, with the issue of people "overpowering" God.

The catholic standpoint goes like this: God wills for us to have and exercise Free Will. God also wills for us to be saved.

But isn't that contradictory, Jeff? How does that work? The Church teaches that there is God's Active will and God's Permissive Will. That is, because God desires our salvation, he has given us His Only Begotten Son as the only worthy sacrifice, and He continues to give us the Grace from the Spirit in order to follow him. However, because he wills for our freedom he Permits us to act freely.

Thus, while Calvin argued that God chose to impart Grace to some and not to others, Catholicism teaches that God calls all people to Grace from the moment of Creation, and if we accept that Grace, it is entirely His doing, but at the same time, God Permits us to deny the gift that he offers us. To Catholics, "the elect" are those that God, in his Absolute Wisdom, foresees as freely accepting the gift of salvation. Thus, to us, it is impossible to know who "the elect" are.


I hope that helps a little bit, and I should probably add that many of the denominations that at one time supported Calvin's Double Predestination have reformed their views and adopted a theology on the matter that is strikingly similar to the Catholic Church's teachings on predestination. Calvin's is a doctrine that is very hard to justify against scripture.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 29 2004, 06:14 PM'] the way you explain it sounds more like Catholic doctrine on predestination to me. [/quote]
Well, it depends on which school of Catholic predestinarian theology you're referring to. I was absolutely horrified by J. Calvin's statement above, because it teaches [i]conditional election[/i], which as an Augustinian/Thomist, I utterly repudiate - rather, I believe God calls and elects men according to His inscrutable purposes, independent of any merit of theirs.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Such a belief is not repudiated by the Church, but the further development of the theory which I have outlined and personally espouse was non-existant when St. Augustine and Aquinus were considering the matter, and it is the line of thought espoused as "the more palatable of the two" by St. Francis DeSales, as well as many other teachers and Saints of the Church.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Apotheoun]

Here are a couple of things that Calvin said about predestination:

"We call predestination God's eternal decree by which He compacted with Himself what He willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death." [John Calvin, [u]The Institutes of the Christian Religion[/u], book III, chap. 21, no. 5]

"As scripture, then, clearly shows, we say that God once established by His eternal and unchangeable plan those whom He long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, He would devote to destruction. We assert that, with respect to the elect, this plan was founded upon His freely given mercy, without regard to human worth; but by His just and irreprehensible but incomprehensible judgment He has barred the door of life to those whom He has given over to damnation. Now among the elect we regard the call as a testimony of election. Then we hold justification another sign of its manifestation, until they come into the glory in which the fulfillment of that election lies. But as the Lord seals His elect by call and justification, so, by shutting off the reprobate from knowledge of His name or from the sanctification of His Spirit, He, as it were, reveals by these marks what sort of judgment awaits them." [John Calvin, [u]The Institutes of the Christian Religion[/u], book III, chap. 21, Summary]

[PedroX]

Apotheon,

You were quicker with the quotes than I was! I knew those were there, I just didn't have time before now to look them up!

J. Calvin, these quotes illustrate well the problems that Catholics have with Calvinism. How do you see them fitting with justification?

peace...

[p0lar_bear]

[quote]But isn't that contradictory, Jeff? How does that work? [/quote]

Complete aside, but I find it amusing the way you ask yourself questions...

[Guest JeffCR07]

hahaha, its sort of a tongue-in-cheek, blue-collar reference to the way Aquinas structured the Summa, but it also makes writing long posts more interesting for me personally and (im glad) the reader.

[Chrysologus]

Even worse than this is the Calvinist belief that Jesus only died for the elect, and not for all! A Calvinist can't say "Jesus loves you" to everyone, because he or she doesn't know if Jesus actually loves and died for that particular person. It's very bad theology.