Evangelising On LDS Forum

[Jane_Doe2]

1 minute ago, Lilllabettt said:

Curious - does this allow you to have a personal prayer relationship with Jesus? Are you permitted to address him directly, by His holy name? I've always felt pangs for LDS that they consider it a no no to speak to Jesus in the silence of their hearts. I've thought how incredibly hard it would be to believe speaking to Jesus is something wrong... so very different from Catholicism where it's that intimacy that's the source and summit of our life. 

It's not that LDS Christians consider to praying to Jesus to be "wrong".  It's just improper because it's not what Jesus Himself instructed us to do, and we show our love for Him by doing what He asked us to do.    And all prayers literally end in Christ's name.  Prayer is a HUGE part of an LDS Christian's life.  

1 minute ago, Lilllabettt said:

"Listening to the spirit" move in the emotions is primarily how Mormons determine what is true, yes? This is what I mean with the emotionality.  It's a form of discernment, but with Roman Catholics, the emphasis is on using the intellect and reason to discern the truth. Example, when I was prostelityzed (a few times) I was told the stirrings of my heart (ie movement of the spirit) when listening to the story of LDS revelation would be how I knew it was true. When Mormons pray they frequently describe it as feeling the spirit moving - an emotional experience.  

I feel it's important to draw the distinction between listening to the Spirit (which is a huge part of discernment) and just you being emotional.  They are two different things.  

When you say "being emotional"... I think of my 5 year old daughter who gets frustrated and yell "I'm angry!" while literally stamping her foot on the ground.  That's not the Spirit.  

Versus listening to the Spirit is... running with a personal example here: last week I was in a major stuck-spot at work.  I just couldn't figure something out, and it was causing a lot of trouble for months.    Emotionally I felt... frustrated, angry and just fed up.  I felt a prompting from the Spirit "You should call your old friend Ken and ask for his help".  Just that gentle nudge.  Well, I haven't talked to Ken in years and to my knowledge he didn't have the knowledge I need.  But I called him, and he goes "hey, can I do this project for you?  Right here, right now, for free.  I have a job interview Monday that is literally on this type of project and I would love to be able to use this as a portfolio example."

 

 

As to using intellect and studying things out: LDS Christian do that too.  It's just has proportionally less emphasis than Catholic Christians place on it.  Same as Catholic Christians also do believe in listening to the Spirit, but with less emphasis that a LDS Christian.  

1 minute ago, Lilllabettt said:

Does LDS have a theory of prayer development I wonder? In other words is their a tradition analogous to the "dark night of the soul" that is in Catholic practice?

Learning how to pray & listen to the Spirit is a HUGE part of spiritual development for an LDS Christian.  If fact I would possibly say it the number 1 biggest piece of spiritual development.  There's a whole bunch of different techniques to help different people-- as we each do think and experience things differently.  It's a part of discipleship that you continue to work on throughout your life.

Aside: I had to Google the phrase "dark night of the soul" for this response and learned some cool stuff about Catholic traditions.  Thank you for that.  

[Guest]

Excellent thread.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

Josh, if you want to talk to me, then YOU have to talk TO ME.  I don't talk to unthinking videos or memes.  

Tbh not extremely interested at the moment after the personal message you sent the other day. Although glad you're here. The videos aren't meant for you to talk to. They're meant for you to listen. Often God gets his message across that way through the Holy Spirit. Silence and listening can be of great value. I know from experience. Peace be with you. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Guest

[Jane_Doe2]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

Tbh not extremely interested after the personal message you sent the other day. 

*shrug*  Not much I can do if me being honest and giving you a heads up upset you.

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

The videos aren't meant for you to talk to. There meant for you to listen. 

Josh, I'm not an idiot, nor uneducated.  Please don't treat me as such.

I've study Catholicism for years.  Not from YouTube videos, but by actually walking my butt into a Catholic Church, sitting on the pew, and honestly listening.   I attended Stations of the Cross for over a decade.   When there is something I don't ask questions directly, and thank people when I do learn something new (like the "dark night of the soul" thing earlier).  I honestly enjoy learning about what other people believe, even if I don't share those beliefs and never will. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

shrug*  Not much I can do if me being honest and giving you a heads up upset you

Didn't upset me lol Reminded me of Midsommar.

 

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

Josh, I'm not an idiot, nor uneducated.  Please don't treat me as such.

I don't think you're neither. I'm not treating you as such.

 

4 minutes ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

I've study Catholicism for years.  Not from YouTube videos, but by actually walking my butt into a Catholic Church, sitting on the pew, and honestly listening.   I attended Stations of the Cross for over a decade.   When there is something I don't ask questions directly, and thank people when I do learn something new (like the "dark night of the soul" thing earlier).  I honestly enjoy learning about what other people believe, even if I don't share those beliefs and never will. 

This is dope. Respect. You are a female? May I ask how old?

[Guest]

[Seven77]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

I've study Catholicism for years.  Not from YouTube videos, but by actually walking my butt into a Catholic Church, sitting on the pew, and honestly listening.   I attended Stations of the Cross for over a decade.   When there is something I don't ask questions directly, and thank people when I do learn something new (like the "dark night of the soul" thing earlier).  I honestly enjoy learning about what other people believe, even if I don't share those beliefs and never will. 

That's very interesting. Were there any things in particular that you wondered about? Also, I know that's not what you're doing but please do not discount the value of learning from reliable solid material on YouTube and other forms of media. Experiential knowledge is best, but supplemental  knowledge from books and media are indispensable because they help to foster that experiential knowledge… And eventually love. As a lifelong Catholic, I continue to learn.

The things about discernment and such, I think that St. Ignatius of Loyola had much to offer here.

[Jane_Doe2]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

I don't think you're neither. I'm not treating you as such.

When you post things like I've never heard someone critical of LDS beliefs, or somebody pro-Catholic, it gives that impression. 

2 hours ago, Josh said:

This is dope. Respect. 

  Respect is a big deal for me, along with getting my facts straight from primary high-quality sources (more on this in my reply to Seven77's comment).  

2 hours ago, Josh said:

You are a female? May I ask how old?

Female yes, middle aged.  

 For me, a big deal is getting my facts straight and going to high quality primary sources.  Hence my learning about Catholicism straight from Catholics.  I attend Mass, chat with knowledgeable Catholics (layman and priests), read CCC, read high quality Catholic commentaries (like stuff written by Saints), etc.  

YouTube videos can be... some can be good, but there's a lot of trashy ones out there too.  I don't need to watch a video about "____ faith exposed!" or something downright bashing.  I'd rather something that's primary source, respectful, and factual.  *Thinking of an example recent video I have watched*... when Notre Dome had that tragic fire, I did watch a video covering it and several videos on the history of the cathedral (videos put out by reputable Catholic sources and caretakers of the cathedral).  

And yes, continuing to learn is a GREAT thing!  Learn about God, learn about ourselves, learn about our fellow man, and so many other things.  

[Seven77]

41 minutes ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

When you post things like I've never heard someone critical of LDS beliefs, or somebody pro-Catholic, it gives that impression. 

  Respect is a big deal for me, along with getting my facts straight from primary high-quality sources (more on this in my reply to Seven77's comment).  

Female yes, middle aged.  

 For me, a big deal is getting my facts straight and going to high quality primary sources.  Hence my learning about Catholicism straight from Catholics.  I attend Mass, chat with knowledgeable Catholics (layman and priests), read CCC, read high quality Catholic commentaries (like stuff written by Saints), etc.  

YouTube videos can be... some can be good, but there's a lot of trashy ones out there too.  I don't need to watch a video about "____ faith exposed!" or something downright bashing.  I'd rather something that's primary source, respectful, and factual.  *Thinking of an example recent video I have watched*... when Notre Dome had that tragic fire, I did watch a video covering it and several videos on the history of the cathedral (videos put out by reputable Catholic sources and caretakers of the cathedral).  

And yes, continuing to learn is a GREAT thing!  Learn about God, learn about ourselves, learn about our fellow man, and so many other things.  

 There is never enough learning.Definitely.

For sure, not everything on the Internet can be trusted.It is very important to get your facts straight from high quality resources. ( it seems that you really know where to go for solid teaching about Catholic teaching… I can recommend more if you wish) And I agree, that there  is a lot of trashy stuff on YouTube, incorrect stuff, gossiping, lack of charity, and bashing, etc.  You know, one of the things I really respect about Mormons is that they are generally very kind people.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

 I don't need to watch a video about "____ faith exposed!" or something downright bashing.  

Luckily that's not what I posted. 

[Jane_Doe2]

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

 There is never enough learning.Definitely.

For sure, not everything on the Internet can be trusted.It is very important to get your facts straight from high quality resources. ( it seems that you really know where to go for solid teaching about Catholic teaching… I can recommend more if you wish) And I agree, that there  is a lot of trashy stuff on YouTube, incorrect stuff, gossiping, lack of charity, and bashing, etc.  You know, one of the things I really respect about Mormons is that they are generally very kind people.

The Second Great Commandment is important.

I appreciate the offer for materials, thank you.  I'll let you know if I think of something.

54 minutes ago, Josh said:

Luckily that's not what I posted. 

Let me know if you want to discuss anything

[Guest]

[Lilllabettt]

On 8/10/2019 at 11:56 AM, Jane_Doe2 said:

It's not that LDS Christians consider to praying to Jesus to be "wrong".  It's just improper because it's not what Jesus Himself instructed us to do, and we show our love for Him by doing what He asked us to do.    And all prayers literally end in Christ's name.  Prayer is a HUGE part of an LDS Christian's life.  

I feel it's important to draw the distinction between listening to the Spirit (which is a huge part of discernment) and just you being emotional.  They are two different things.  

When you say "being emotional"... I think of my 5 year old daughter who gets frustrated and yell "I'm angry!" while literally stamping her foot on the ground.  That's not the Spirit.  

Versus listening to the Spirit is... running with a personal example here: last week I was in a major stuck-spot at work.  I just couldn't figure something out, and it was causing a lot of trouble for months.    Emotionally I felt... frustrated, angry and just fed up.  I felt a prompting from the Spirit "You should call your old friend Ken and ask for his help".  Just that gentle nudge.  Well, I haven't talked to Ken in years and to my knowledge he didn't have the knowledge I need.  But I called him, and he goes "hey, can I do this project for you?  Right here, right now, for free.  I have a job interview Monday that is literally on this type of project and I would love to be able to use this as a portfolio example."

 

 

As to using intellect and studying things out: LDS Christian do that too.  It's just has proportionally less emphasis than Catholic Christians place on it.  Same as Catholic Christians also do believe in listening to the Spirit, but with less emphasis that a LDS Christian.  

Learning how to pray & listen to the Spirit is a HUGE part of spiritual development for an LDS Christian.  If fact I would possibly say it the number 1 biggest piece of spiritual development.  There's a whole bunch of different techniques to help different people-- as we each do think and experience things differently.  It's a part of discipleship that you continue to work on throughout your life.

Aside: I had to Google the phrase "dark night of the soul" for this response and learned some cool stuff about Catholic traditions.  Thank you for that.  

So, given that listening for the promptings of the spirit is so important, is there a tradition around the meaning of dryness in prayer, given that everyone experiences this... or most do? It's a common experience that God seems to be silent, and there are no nudges or promptings. In a lot of lives, people experience the feeling of being totally abandoned by God. Just wondering how Mormons navigate that, given that feeling nudges etc. is so important in daily life. 

Curious again, and no need to answer if you're not comfortable... but have you ever spoken to Jesus?  If you asked the Father "do you want me to have a personal relationship with Jesus" you might be surprised at the Spirit's response. 

(On the chance you were looking for a sign or a nudge to do that,  you could consider this that.) 

It's true that mainstream Christianity, Catholicism included, doesn't consider Mormon's Christian, because they don't accept the Trinity. But, if you have time, would you be able to expound on how you don't? For example, on the lds website, it explains that Mormons don't believe the Father Son and Spirit are one person. But Trinitarians do not believe they are one person either - so what is the real difference? 

Would Mormons accept the formulation that there are three persons in one God? 

Or would they rather say - there are three gods, all united perfectly in one will and purpose - but different beings?

Edited August 11, 2019 by Lilllabettt

[Jane_Doe2]

This was a fantastic post, @Lillabettt

2 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

So, given that listening for the promptings of the spirit is so important, is there a tradition around the meaning of dryness in prayer, given that everyone experiences this... or most do? It's a common experience that God seems to be silent, and there are no nudges or promptings. In a lot of lives, people experience the feeling of being totally abandoned by God. Just wondering how Mormons navigate that, given that feeling nudges etc. is so important in daily life. 

If somebody were to come up to me being 'stuck' like this (because it does happen), I'd ask some questions for the person to be introspective on.  Like:

Are you stopping to listen?  Many times we (we=general humans) can get in the habit with prayer that we treat is like a phone call that we pick up the phone, quickly as possible ramble stuff off, and then just hang up the phone.  Not taking that time to listen.  You got to take the time/energy to listen.  There's a million ways you can set up time/energy/space/movement to have that quality time with God.

Similarly: have your prayers gotten rote, wherein you're just going through the motions and neglecting the heart that should be put into a relationship.  

Do you need to strengthen your "hearing" skills-- working on realizing when something is from God?

Do you have some huge sin in your life or other thing that is causing you ignore God because you don't want to hear it?  

Etc.

 

I am curious: what would be your Catholic answer to this great question?

2 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

Curious again, and no need to answer if you're not comfortable... but have you ever spoken to Jesus? 

I'm 100% cool with that question (any pretty much any other question too-- again OCD honest).

Totally.  Heck, earlier this afternoon I had a teaching moment with my daughter (who's 5 and has scary dreams sometimes) about when she's scared, saying a prayer and asking Jesus to protect her and keep safe.  Stressing once again how Jesus is her Savior.

2 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

 If you asked the Father "do you want me to have a personal relationship with Jesus" you might be surprised at the Spirit's response. 

*Jane blinks in confusion* time out: where in the world did you get the idea that I do NOT consider it critical to have a personal relationship with Jesus?The VERY definition of a Christian is a disciple of Christ.  If you do not have a personal relationship with Christ, then you're doing this whole Christianity thing wrong.  It is the VERY CENTER of who I am as a person.  My foundation, my rock, literally the thing that keeps me sane at points.

(Breaking up my response)

2 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

It's true that mainstream Christianity, Catholicism included, doesn't consider Mormon's Christian, because they don't accept the Trinity. But, if you have time, would you be able to expound on how you don't? For example, on the lds website, it explains that Mormons don't believe the Father Son and Spirit are one person. But Trinitarians do not believe they are one person either - so what is the real difference? 

Would Mormons accept the formulation that there are three persons in one God? 

Or would they rather say - there are three gods, all united perfectly in one will and purpose - but different beings?

LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons in ONE God.  Just like Trinitarians.

 The difference comes in *how* these three are believed to be one.  For LDS Christians it's through unity (completely united in will, purpose, goodness, mercy, etc), whereas Christians that adhere to the Athanasian Creed this oneness is through consubstantiality.  

[Seven77]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons in ONE God.  Just like Trinitarians.

 The difference comes in *how* these three are believed to be one.  For LDS Christians it's through unity (completely united in will, purpose, goodness, mercy, etc), whereas Christians that adhere to the Athanasian Creed this oneness is through consubstantiality.  

so in other words, the Three Persons are united in that they are of one mind? 

[Jane_Doe2]

12 minutes ago, Seven77 said:

so in other words, the Three Persons are united in that they are of one mind? 

That + one will + one mercy + one justice + one goodness + one all knowing + one all powerful, etc.  

[Lilllabettt]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

This was a fantastic post, @Lillabettt

If somebody were to come up to me being 'stuck' like this (because it does happen), I'd ask some questions for the person to be introspective on.  Like:

Are you stopping to listen?  Many times we (we=general humans) can get in the habit with prayer that we treat is like a phone call that we pick up the phone, quickly as possible ramble stuff off, and then just hang up the phone.  Not taking that time to listen.  You got to take the time/energy to listen.  There's a million ways you can set up time/energy/space/movement to have that quality time with God.

Similarly: have your prayers gotten rote, wherein you're just going through the motions and neglecting the heart that should be put into a relationship.  

Do you need to strengthen your "hearing" skills-- working on realizing when something is from God?

Do you have some huge sin in your life or other thing that is causing you ignore God because you don't want to hear it?  

Etc.

 

I am curious: what would be your Catholic answer to this great question?

I'm 100% cool with that question (any pretty much any other question too-- again OCD honest).

Totally.  Heck, earlier this afternoon I had a teaching moment with my daughter (who's 5 and has scary dreams sometimes) about when she's scared, saying a prayer and asking Jesus to protect her and keep safe.  Stressing once again how Jesus is her Savior.

*Jane blinks in confusion* time out: where in the world did you get the idea that I do NOT consider it critical to have a personal relationship with Jesus?The VERY definition of a Christian is a disciple of Christ.  If you do not have a personal relationship with Christ, then you're doing this whole Christianity thing wrong.  It is the VERY CENTER of who I am as a person.  My foundation, my rock, literally the thing that keeps me sane at points.

(Breaking up my response)

LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons in ONE God.  Just like Trinitarians.

 The difference comes in *how* these three are believed to be one.  For LDS Christians it's through unity (completely united in will, purpose, goodness, mercy, etc), whereas Christians that adhere to the Athanasian Creed this oneness is through consubstantiality.  

So, it's hard to have a personal relationship with Jesus if you don't speak to him. Anytime Catholics speak to Jesus, we consider that prayer. Which, I thought Mormons don't pray to Jesus? But it sounds like you did tell your daughter to pray to him for protection?

In Catholicism, dryness in prayer has two meanings: one,  spiritual sloth (you have gotten spiritually lazy and thus its difficult to get a dial tone in prayer). God permits this. Two is, spiritual ascendancy. God wills this. He deliberately withdraws consolation, and any sense of guidance or direction in order to purify your love. This usually happens only after reaching a certain level of divine intimacy. Although for many people they experience a tide  - God is sensible to them, then withdraws, then after a time is in contact again, and so on - for others it is more or less permanent.  St. Teresa of Calcutta experienced a vision of Jesus telling her to leave her convent and start a new order - the Missionaries of Charity. After setting out to do this, God seemingly abandoned her. For decades she endured all types of temptation to atheism. I believe she died in this dark night, although she persevered in faith to the end. Her order was extremely successful but she did not experience nudges or consolations or any sense of the presence of God, for many years.  It was not a question of her not listening - he was silent. Although it was very difficult, her spiritual guides knew what was happening, and so did she, because this is a well trod path in Catholicism. After reaching the level of prayer that she had, when Jesus appeared and was literally visually sensible to her  - the only way for her to grow in love was for her to prove it by continuing to follow Him even without the slightest sensible consolation. She lived both extremes - the extreme consolation of seeing Jesus with her very eyes - and extreme desolation- decades without any contact. 

[Guest]

WOW! Not often The Dark Night is explained in terms that are readily understood ........and WOW! again.

Excellent post, Lillabettt - thank you very much - and in an excellent thread too.  Good reading.

 

[Jane_Doe2]

12 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

So, it's hard to have a personal relationship with Jesus if you don't speak to him. Anytime Catholics speak to Jesus, we consider that prayer. Which, I thought Mormons don't pray to Jesus? But it sounds like you did tell your daughter to pray to him for protection?

My initial not-very-eloquent response to this first sentence was "does accepting Him as your Lord & Savior, giving your entire heart, mind, and soul to, and strive to follow Him and His example every day somehow not count in your mind?  After all, praying to the Father is done because that's what Christ asked us to do-- the very act is an act of devotion and discipleship to Christ". 

 

 

And then after reading your later sentences, I realized that we're having a miscommunication here regard the word "prayer".  You're talking about "prayer" broadly defined as in *any* communication with the divine.  I'm talking about "prayer" more narrowly defined as formal on-your-knees communication.   

Going with the narrow definition I was using, LDS Christians pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, as instructed by Christ.  Something along the lines of "Dear Heavenly Father......<contents>...., In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen".  

Going with the broad definition you were using, LDS Christians of course communicate with the Father, Son, and Spirit.

 

Aside: it's also important to remember the one-ness between the Father, Son, and Spirit here.

12 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

In Catholicism, dryness in prayer has two meanings: one,  spiritual sloth (you have gotten spiritually lazy and thus its difficult to get a dial tone in prayer). God permits this. Two is, spiritual ascendancy. God wills this. He deliberately withdraws consolation, and any sense of guidance or direction in order to purify your love. This usually happens only after reaching a certain level of divine intimacy. Although for many people they experience a tide  - God is sensible to them, then withdraws, then after a time is in contact again, and so on - for others it is more or less permanent.  St. Teresa of Calcutta experienced a vision of Jesus telling her to leave her convent and start a new order - the Missionaries of Charity. After setting out to do this, God seemingly abandoned her. For decades she endured all types of temptation to atheism. I believe she died in this dark night, although she persevered in faith to the end. Her order was extremely successful but she did not experience nudges or consolations or any sense of the presence of God, for many years.  It was not a question of her not listening - he was silent. Although it was very difficult, her spiritual guides knew what was happening, and so did she, because this is a well trod path in Catholicism. After reaching the level of prayer that she had, when Jesus appeared and was literally visually sensible to her  - the only way for her to grow in love was for her to prove it by continuing to follow Him even without the slightest sensible consolation. She lived both extremes - the extreme consolation of seeing Jesus with her very eyes - and extreme desolation- decades without any contact. 

That's very interesting.  Reminds me of Abraham being asked to sacrifice Issac actually.  Sometimes we are tested in very unexpected ways.  Thank you for sharing.

[Guest]

About last night...