Ultra-trads Give Legit-trads A Bad Name

[dUSt]

I consider myself a John Paul II loving Traditionalist. I have a deep love for Tradition, and yearn for a reverent, Sacred liturgy. I am opposed to a lot of the modern movements that seem to be going on in the church that usually end up in liturgical abuses and/or an absence of a true devotion to the Eucharist.

I'm a big fan of this site: [url="http://www.adoremus.org/"]http://www.adoremus.org/[/url]

With that said, I do believe that the Catholic equivalent of "fundamentalists" do more harm to the Traditional movement than good. When Catholics begin to place more importance on tradition (notice the lower case t) than they do the teachings of the living magisterium, the Holy Father, etc, they cease to be Catholic, because in effect, they are protesting their faith, making them protestant.

Just like fundamentalist Protestants usually end up giving Christianity a bad name, I think the same applies to fundamental Catholics giving the Church a bad name. Of course, this can be applied to the other side of the scale as well. Ultra-liberal Catholics do just as much, if not more harm.

I suppose I'm just dreaming of the day that we can all be moderate Catholics. haha... I guess it's against human nature though--oh well.

[Crusader_4]

Dust i hope we are never moderate Catholis....(moderate to me = modeartion) i hope we are Orthodox Conservatvie Catholics!!! hehehe

[qfnol31]

I really like JPII. He's a great guy!

I just found out last night (today) that he met with Padre Pio, who most likely predicted his Papacy? They seemed to get along really well, and Padre Pio is considered by many to be pretty conservative.

[Archbishop 10-K]

You're quite right. I'm a traditionalist and love Pope JPII at the same time. Unfortunately, in some circles, the word "traditionalist" is almost as dirty as the word "liberal." The Rad Trads are basically the Catholic equivalent of thick-skulled, Bible-thumping fundies, as you said.

[PedroX]

I also get tired of trad being a dirty word, especially around this board. Whenever we don't agree with someone whose more conservative than we are we drag out the "t" word.

I'm sure my sincere, intelligent "trad" brothers and sisters love being called thick skulled. Thats real Christian love at its best.

peace...

[Archbishop 10-K]

[quote]I'm sure my sincere, intelligent "trad" brothers and sisters love being called thick skulled. Thats real Christian love at its best.[/quote]


I wouldn't classify sincere and intelligent traditionalists to be "Rad Trads." My definition of "Rad Trads" are those who are convinced Pope JPII is a heretic (not talking about sedevacantists here), that you must be a Rad Trad to be saved, etc. The best example I can think of is www.romancatholicism.org.

Perhaps I should choose my wording more carefully next time, though.

[BurkeFan]

Haha, Adoremus. I know the husband of the woman who runs it!

That being said, I don't think acronyms help it much. Said in conversation, FFSP and SSPX are easy to confuse, even mentally I think. One was started by the Pope (or at least with his blessing), the other rejects the Pope.

I think, and sincerely hope and pray, that many of the schisms of rad-trads will come back into the Church as the true nature of Vatican II (that it was actually a fairly conservative council) comes into fruition.

[MorphRC]

I believe the traditionalists, dont want so much of their religion being thrown away. I mean look at the Latin Mass and the New Mass. There is almost no ritual in the N.O. Mass, except in the Eucharist parts. Vatican II threw away tradition and ritual to such an extend, try and find the different between a Lutheran,Protestant service and the Mass. Dont take that out of context you know im refering to rituals and movements.

[popestpiusx]

Traditionalists are all a pain in the arse.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I agree with Dust: reverence, piety, fidelity to the Magisterium and the Holy Father, humility, charity, love, this is what Catholic is being all about. Whenever we let our own intellect, our own attachment to "t"radition (or our distaste for it, in the case of "liberals"), or anything else for that matter, lead us away from Christ's Church, its such a shame.

I'm with Crusader: cant we all just be orthodox?

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I would love to see some of the "Rad Trads" come back. The "modernists" hijacked our council...

All divisions in Christianity are sad, but this one hurts the most.

Edited July 1, 2004 by thedude

[dUSt]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Jul 1 2004, 03:29 AM'] Vatican II threw away tradition and ritual [/quote]
Please qualify this statement with documentation.

[Azriel]

I've said it once, I'll say it 100 times.

I'm not liberal or conservative. I'm Catholic. Period.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I like that point a lot azriel, when you think about it, its very true.

Many people have told me that I am "very conservative" because I hold myself strictly in line with the Holy Father and the Magisterium, but I always feel like that title isn't appropriate. Isn't that what all catholics should do?

To be orthodox - that is, to be in line with the Pope and Magisterium, does not designate you as a conservative or a liberal (though, for other reasons, they are right when they call me a conservative).

Also, I would like to see documentation establishing the "throwing away" of ritual and tradition as well.

I find an amazing amount of tradition in post-Vatican II Latin Rite Catholicism. Particularly after reading some of the books by Ratzinger, it has become clear that we have not lost any of the depth or meaning that existed before VII. In fact, I would argue that we have increased.

Either way, my opinion is not the issue, documents verifying your accusation are.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Archbishop 10-K' date='Jul 1 2004, 12:19 AM'] I wouldn't classify sincere and intelligent traditionalists to be "Rad Trads." My definition of "Rad Trads" are those who are convinced Pope JPII is a heretic (not talking about sedevacantists here), that you must be a Rad Trad to be saved, etc. The best example I can think of is www.romancatholicism.org. [/quote]
I take a more Balthasarian attitude towards John Paul II. He *might* be a heretic, though since no one can judge the Pope but another Pope, no one will know his status for certain unless either a future Pope declares him to be a heretic, or he gets canonized (which, obviously, would mean that he isn't).

Roman Catholicism is a pretty nutty site. I wouldn't take Thomas Sparks as my example of traditionalism. Rather I would take Michael Davies, Michael Matt, Thomas Woods, Thomas Droleskey, Christopher Ferrara, Marian Horvat, Robert Sungenis, Gerry Matatics, etc.

[cmotherofpirl]

If you are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church
[all of it, not just the parts you like]
you can not go wrong.


Trads who diss the Pope or Church are like little kids playing with their friends, if they can't have their own way they pick up their toys and stamp home.
I expect this of little kids, but not adults.

If everyone who stamps off went back to their home parish, joined the liturgy committee, and the CCD committee and the adult education committee, the youth group committee, parish council etc things would improve greatly for all Catholics in all parishes. Taking over a liberal modernist off the wall parish is far more important in the long run than stamping off to your own little conclave.



Luther stamped off , St Francis of Assisi stayed.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Luther stamped off, St Francis of Assisi stayed.[/quote]

I like that. A ton. lol, awesome quote cmom, I agree absolutely 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt with the whole thing. Orthodoxy forever

[Hananiah]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 1 2004, 01:46 PM'] If you are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church
[all of it, not just the parts you like]
you can not go wrong. [/quote]
I'm not sure what you mean by that. If it means that you are faithful to every dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church, then I agree. If you mean that one must accept every word that comes out of the Pope's mouth, then I disagree. Any number of Popes have said scandalous, immoral, and even heretical things, and no one has ever been obligated to abide by them. John XXII's teaching about the beatific vision was objectively false, and if laymen had not stood up to him he might have never repented and probably would have gone to hell. Urban VI's pastoral strategy was a disaster, and if St. Catherine of Sienna had not rebuked him he might never have changed. Lastly, St. Peter's actions in denying table fellowship to Gentile Christians were injurious to the salvation of souls, and if St. Paul had not rebuked him Christianity might never have gotten off the ground.

If you do not believe that these people were wrong to resist the Pope than you have absolutely no grounds for condemning traditionalists who do the same to the current Pontiff. You are applying a double standard, and the only reason you are doing so is because of the neo-Catholic penchant for slavishly defending everything John Paul II says and does. Well, real love does not confirm people in their sin. Real love calls a spade a spade, and does everything in its power to advance the good of the beloved. If you really love John Paul II, instead of attacking anyone who criticises him, you should [color=red][Edited by dUSt: Please re-read the phorum guidelines][/color]

As you can probably gather, if I were going to leave the Church becasue I couldn't have things my way, I would have left a long time ago. I am not. Rather I am going to keep praying for the Church and for John Paul II, and working for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. I will do my best to imitate Ss. Paul, Athanasius, and Catherine, as they imitate Christ. If this includes resisting the Pope, so be it.

Edited July 1, 2004 by dUSt

[popestpiusx]

Excellent post, hananiah.

[dUSt]

There are proper ways to "stand up to the pope". Posting on Internet message boards and slandering his name is not exactly the most saintly method for doing so, and will not be tolerated here.

I'm sure we'd all love to see a copy of the letter you've sent to your local bishop, or to the proper contacts at the Vatican. Have you received a response yet from those sources?