Catholic Church incompetant

[Dogtag]

Jesus has called us all to a life of extraordinary holiness. Yet there are so few living saints. Most don't even think that being a saint (or the closest thing to it that is possible) in this life is even an option. How did we get to the place where everyone is planning for purgatory and not going for the great prize now? Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?

 

[Luigi]

Do you know the word "hubris?" 

You might want to look it up. In an theological encyclopedia, not just a secular dictionary. 

[Guest]

There's a lot of Catholics in the world. Look beyond America. There are plenty on the path to Heaven without a detour in Purgatory. I know a few in Uganda. 

[Dogtag]

5 hours ago, Delivery said:

There's a lot of Catholics in the world. Look beyond America. There are plenty on the path to Heaven without a detour in Purgatory. I know a few in Uganda. 

Fair enough. Why is the Church in America so pusillanimous?

[Dogtag]

5 hours ago, Delivery said:

There's a lot of Catholics in the world. Look beyond America. There are plenty on the path to Heaven without a detour in Purgatory. I know a few in Uganda. 

Do you have any stories or nuggets of wisdom to share from those you know who are on their way?

 

[little2add]

15 hours ago, Dogtag said:

pusillanimous?

Where are you from, pray tell?

[Dogtag]

America

[MIKolbe]

that explains it...

 

[Ice_nine]

On 12/2/2019 at 1:13 AM, Luigi said:

Do you know the word "hubris?" 

You might want to look it up. In an theological encyclopedia, not just a secular dictionary. 

What you call hubris may very well be trust in God's mercy.

I see no point to aim for purgatory. And I know I'm far from perfect now but I hope that God will perfect me at the moment of my death.

[Luigi]

11 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

What you call hubris may very well be trust in God's mercy.

I see no point to aim for purgatory. And I know I'm far from perfect now but I hope that God will perfect me at the moment of my death.

I was referring to this: "Most don't even think that being a saint (or the closest thing to it that is possible) in this life is even an option. How did we get to the place where everyone is planning for purgatory and not going for the great prize now? Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?"

Broad-brush statements (most, we, everyone),

unsubstantiated by any evidence,

based on unsubstantiated assumptions (most don't even think that being a saint is an option, everyone is planning for purgatory, the Church is unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ).

Hubris in the sense of excessive pride or self-confidence as expressed in the attitude of "I know the real situation; no one else does. I know the right way to do this; other people don't." And if himself actually is the only one in the know and can actually do it the right way, then get to it!

[Ice_nine]

I think he was just asking a question. But I will say there are a lot of Catholics on the interwebs who say things like "I'm going to have to sit in purgatory for x amount of years." Some of that may be in jest but also it might reflect a genuine attitude. I wonder if it's in part reaction to the absolute certainty of salvation that many protestants endorse i.e. "once saved, always saved."

[Seven77]

 I think it's because a lot of people don't know or understand that we are actually supposed to be Jesus and completely transformed into him. That's what it means to be a Saint, something that begins here and now. There are organizations in the Catholic Church that strive to educate fellow Catholics about their call to greatness, willed by God. One of these is the Institute of Catholic Culture, www.instituteofcatholicculture.org. They offer free talks – –  free adult education which comprises an entire curriculum for learning about the faith. The material is out there. People just don't know about it.

God didn't create us for just barely making it, he created us to represent him and make him present in the world by allowing him to live his life in us.  To be one with him. I think that there are two extremes… The Protestant idea of once saved always saved: it's all a done deal, I don't have to do anything really other than get people saved like me so they don't have to do anything either. The other idea would be similar, Catholics thinking they would be saved, hopefully at the moment of their death, until then they don't have do anything other than take care of material needs, because God knows I'm a good person. Both of these take salvation for granted. Combine that with an idea that we can't really know truth, coming from the secular culture.

 The reality is, only saints go to heaven (which is ultimately not floating on clouds playing harps as disembodied spirits). I think it is up to us to live as saints and get the Word out.

… How do we do that is the question…

[Guest]

My dear Dad used to say "Life is long and full of pitfalls" and at my 74 years almost, I agree with him.  I think many Catholics aim for holiness or saintliness but do know that life is long and full of pitfalls, hence are not overly confident now.  Not overly confident, but very hopeful knowing that God's Grace in abundance is with them for great holiness in their normal everyday lives.

I have known many Catholics not at all outspoken - most are rather quiet types.  As I got to know them better, I came to regard them as exceptionally holy but genuinely not recognising it so as it state "I am holy".  Their focus is God and neighbour.  What they do state freely is of God's Abundant Qualities, rather than any self reflection.

I recall being astounded when St Teresa of Avila called herself "nothing but a worm".  What I have come to understand is that the closer one grows towards God the more his Absolute Holiness (for want of a better description in language) attracts even absorbs one - and the more one realises who one is in relation to God.  Hence might call themselves in all honesty "nothing but a lowly worm" in comparison.

On this earth, holiness will be an ever distant horizon.  The Church presents to us the goal of holiness or saintliness as attainable.  The problem is, I think, that we have an image, a picture in our minds of what holiness is and most often it is something unattainable to oneself......in other words, the problem is not The Church but myself and my concepts, my expectations.

If there is any problem in The Church as hierarchy is their distance in reality from the ordinary everyday Catholic.  Their understanding of those they lead is mostly second hand information, not hands on experience.

[little2add]

The undoing of the catholic lies within the congregation not the hierarchy.  Divorce, lack of respect for the “sanctity of marriage”, and dare I say “abortion”, pornography has damaged us (family) all!

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by little2add

[Guest]

10 hours ago, little2add said:

The undoing of the catholic lies within the congregation not the hierarchy.  Divorce, lack of respect for the “sanctity of marriage”, and dare I say “abortion”, pornography has damaged us (family) all!

 

Very true.  Are our hierarchy understanding and coming to grips, addressing, the why of it?

[little2add]

If the shepherd fails to looks after  his flock and attend to it, the wolves of the world will rule and the Shepherd And his flock will suffer and die.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, little2add said:

If the shepherd fails to looks after  his flock and attend to it, the wolves of the world will rule and the Shepherd And his flock will suffer and die.  

We know that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail" (Matthew Ch16) against The Church.  The Head and Shepherd of The Church is Jesus through the power of The Holy Spirit and to the Glory of The Father.

Our hierarchy are His appointed shepherds on earth and we know now in a terrible way that they can fail us.  But Jesus never will and so His Church will continue despite the attacks of Hell.  It may not continue in a form we now would recognize, nor perhaps to any of our expectations and anticipations.  But His Church will never fall and fail completely to the attacks of Hell.

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, while still a priest I think, in his book "Faith and The Future" : https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/spiritual-life/the-church-will-become-small.html

"The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members....

It will be hard-going for the Church, for......"........Read more on above link.  Fr Ratzinger may not be spot on, or alternatively, he could be spot on.  His book, however, does illustrate that The Church as hierarchy etc. as we know it today may not persevere into the future.  He continues: "The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution — when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means
certain . . . But .."......Read more on above link.

To my way of thought, I am not therefore surprised at what is happening in The Church today.  Disturbed by it all and horrified - but not taken completely by surprise at what is happening now or may happen in the future.

I mean if our bishops on the eve of the French Revolution thought it smart to deny God's Very Existence, nothing really should surprise I don't think.  We can forget that our hierarchy remain weak mortal men, Graced stunningly by their vocation, but still weak and mortal.

AND

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https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-benedict-fears-catholic-church-worst-enemy-sin-article-1.183697  "Pope Benedict XVI told reporters on Tuesday that its greatest threat is likely not some outside force, but "sin within the Church," Reuters reported.

"Today we see in a truly terrifying way that the greatest persecution of the Church does not come from enemies on the outside, but is born of the sin within the Church," he told reporters while on a plane to Portugal, in response to a question about the child sex abuse scandal.

But, he noted, "forgiveness is not a substitute for justice."

 

We can forget that our own sins add to a weakening of The Church:

 

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https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/01/03/confess-your-own-sins-not-other-peoples-pope-francis-says/ "Fear and the shame of admitting one’s own sins leads to pointing fingers and accusing others rather than recognising one’s own faults, Pope Francis has said."

 

[little2add]

On 11/30/2019 at 10:08 PM, Dogtag said:

Jesus has called us all to a life of extraordinary holiness. Yet there are so few living saints. Most don't even think that being a saint (or the closest thing to it that is possible) in this life is even an option. How did we get to the place where everyone is planning for purgatory and not going for the great prize now? Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?

 

 

The Parable of the Wedding Feast.

Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying,2“The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast* for his son.3* He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come.4A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’5Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business.6b The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.7* The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.8Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come.9Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’10The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike,* and the hall was filled with guests.11* But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment.12He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence.13* c Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’14Many are invited, but few are chosen

[Guest]

9 hours ago, little2add said:

  On 12/1/2019 at 1:38 PM, Dogtag said:

Jesus has called us all to a life of extraordinary holiness. Yet there are so few living saints. Most don't even think that being a saint (or the closest thing to it that is possible) in this life is even an option. How did we get to the place where everyone is planning for purgatory and not going for the great prize now? Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?

Generalisations. 

I think that there is holiness in The Church, meaning holy people.  Holy people who strive to live a Gospel life in union with Jesus and who Hope for Heaven - but might be humbly aware that they might need Purgatory before Heaven.   

Actually aiming for Purgatory is another matter entirely and I certainly have never met someone who had that aim.  It seems to me it could be a matter of presumption and always serious.

Quote

Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?

Again, a generalisation.  

[Guest]

I do tend to think that in the main our hierarchy is out of touch with the ordinary everyday lives of ordinary everyday Catholics and hence do not have hands on experience to understand the why's and wherefore's of the problems of everyday people, the sheep they are called to shepherd, whom today we know are struggling and missing the mark in a big way.

Our hierarchy are called not only to shepherd the flock but also "preach the Gospel to every creature".