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Dogtag

Catholic Church incompetant

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Dogtag

Jesus has called us all to a life of extraordinary holiness. Yet there are so few living saints. Most don't even think that being a saint (or the closest thing to it that is possible) in this life is even an option. How did we get to the place where everyone is planning for purgatory and not going for the great prize now? Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?

 

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Luigi

Do you know the word "hubris?" 

You might want to look it up. In an theological encyclopedia, not just a secular dictionary. 

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Delivery

There's a lot of Catholics in the world. Look beyond America. There are plenty on the path to Heaven without a detour in Purgatory. I know a few in Uganda. 

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Dogtag
5 hours ago, Delivery said:

There's a lot of Catholics in the world. Look beyond America. There are plenty on the path to Heaven without a detour in Purgatory. I know a few in Uganda. 

Fair enough. Why is the Church in America so pusillanimous?

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Dogtag
5 hours ago, Delivery said:

There's a lot of Catholics in the world. Look beyond America. There are plenty on the path to Heaven without a detour in Purgatory. I know a few in Uganda. 

Do you have any stories or nuggets of wisdom to share from those you know who are on their way?

 

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Ice_nine
On 12/2/2019 at 1:13 AM, Luigi said:

Do you know the word "hubris?" 

You might want to look it up. In an theological encyclopedia, not just a secular dictionary. 

What you call hubris may very well be trust in God's mercy.

I see no point to aim for purgatory. And I know I'm far from perfect now but I hope that God will perfect me at the moment of my death.

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Luigi
11 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

What you call hubris may very well be trust in God's mercy.

I see no point to aim for purgatory. And I know I'm far from perfect now but I hope that God will perfect me at the moment of my death.

I was referring to this: "Most don't even think that being a saint (or the closest thing to it that is possible) in this life is even an option. How did we get to the place where everyone is planning for purgatory and not going for the great prize now? Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?"

Broad-brush statements (most, we, everyone),

unsubstantiated by any evidence,

based on unsubstantiated assumptions (most don't even think that being a saint is an option, everyone is planning for purgatory, the Church is unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ).

Hubris in the sense of excessive pride or self-confidence as expressed in the attitude of "I know the real situation; no one else does. I know the right way to do this; other people don't." And if himself actually is the only one in the know and can actually do it the right way, then get to it!

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Ice_nine

I think he was just asking a question. But I will say there are a lot of Catholics on the interwebs who say things like "I'm going to have to sit in purgatory for x amount of years." Some of that may be in jest but also it might reflect a genuine attitude. I wonder if it's in part reaction to the absolute certainty of salvation that many protestants endorse i.e. "once saved, always saved."

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Seven77

 I think it's because a lot of people don't know or understand that we are actually supposed to be Jesus and completely transformed into him. That's what it means to be a Saint, something that begins here and now. There are organizations in the Catholic Church that strive to educate fellow Catholics about their call to greatness, willed by God. One of these is the Institute of Catholic Culture, www.instituteofcatholicculture.org. They offer free talks – –  free adult education which comprises an entire curriculum for learning about the faith. The material is out there. People just don't know about it.

God didn't create us for just barely making it, he created us to represent him and make him present in the world by allowing him to live his life in us.  To be one with him. I think that there are two extremes… The Protestant idea of once saved always saved: it's all a done deal, I don't have to do anything really other than get people saved like me so they don't have to do anything either. The other idea would be similar, Catholics thinking they would be saved, hopefully at the moment of their death, until then they don't have do anything other than take care of material needs, because God knows I'm a good person. Both of these take salvation for granted. Combine that with an idea that we can't really know truth, coming from the secular culture.

 The reality is, only saints go to heaven (which is ultimately not floating on clouds playing harps as disembodied spirits). I think it is up to us to live as saints and get the Word out.

… How do we do that is the question…

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BarbaraTherese

My dear Dad used to say "Life is long and full of pitfalls" and at my 74 years almost, I agree with him.  I think many Catholics aim for holiness or saintliness but do know that life is long and full of pitfalls, hence are not overly confident now.  Not overly confident, but very hopeful knowing that God's Grace in abundance is with them for great holiness in their normal everyday lives.

I have known many Catholics not at all outspoken - most are rather quiet types.  As I got to know them better, I came to regard them as exceptionally holy but genuinely not recognising it so as it state "I am holy".  Their focus is God and neighbour.  What they do state freely is of God's Abundant Qualities, rather than any self reflection.

I recall being astounded when St Teresa of Avila called herself "nothing but a worm".  What I have come to understand is that the closer one grows towards God the more his Absolute Holiness (for want of a better description in language) attracts even absorbs one - and the more one realises who one is in relation to God.  Hence might call themselves in all honesty "nothing but a lowly worm" in comparison.

On this earth, holiness will be an ever distant horizon.  The Church presents to us the goal of holiness or saintliness as attainable.  The problem is, I think, that we have an image, a picture in our minds of what holiness is and most often it is something unattainable to oneself......in other words, the problem is not The Church but myself and my concepts, my expectations.

If there is any problem in The Church as hierarchy is their distance in reality from the ordinary everyday Catholic.  Their understanding of those they lead is mostly second hand information, not hands on experience.

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little2add

The undoing of the catholic lies within the congregation not the hierarchy.  Divorce, lack of respect for the “sanctity of marriage”, and dare I say “abortion”, pornography has damaged us (family) all!

 

Edited by little2add

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BarbaraTherese
10 hours ago, little2add said:

The undoing of the catholic lies within the congregation not the hierarchy.  Divorce, lack of respect for the “sanctity of marriage”, and dare I say “abortion”, pornography has damaged us (family) all!

 

Very true.  Are our hierarchy understanding and coming to grips, addressing, the why of it?

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