Newly Unsealed Vatican Archives Lay Out Evidence of Pope Pius XII’s Knowledge of the Holocaust

[Guest]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/researchers-find-evidence-pope-pius-xii-ignored-reports-holocaust-180974795/

[KnightofChrist]

You're posting more demonic lies.

I suggest an actual objective and balanced book on the topic. Pope Pius XII was actively involved with attempting to remove Hitler from power by deadly force and saving Jewish people. 

Church of Spies: The Pope's Secret War Against Hitler by Mark Riebling

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465094112/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_3mbUEbKGQ0EMS

"Hailed as "powerful and provocative" ( Washington Post), "heart-pounding" ( New York Times) and "brilliant" ( Kirkus), intelligence expert Mark Riebling's groundbreaking book  Wedge inspired "no fewer than seven assorted congressional committees, internal evaluators, and blue-ribbon panels" ( Wall Street Journal). Now, in the long-awaited  Church of Spies, Riebling documents an epic secret battle in the Second World War -- and reframes one of the great historical controversies of our age.

The Vatican's stance toward Nazism is fiercely debated. History has accused wartime pontiff Pius the Twelfth of complicity in the Holocaust and dubbed him "Hitler's Pope." But a key part of the story has remained untold.
 

Pius ran the world's largest church, smallest state, and oldest spy service. Saintly but secretive, he skimmed from church charities to pay covert couriers, and surreptitiously tape-recorded his meetings with top Nazis. When he learned of the Holocaust, Pius played his cards close to his chest. He sent birthday cards to Hitler--while plotting to overthrow him.

Church of Spies documents this cross-and-dagger intrigue in shocking detail. Gun-toting Jesuits stole blueprints to Hitler's homes. A Catholic book publisher flew a sports plane over the Alps with secrets filched from the head of Hitler's bodyguard. The keeper of the Vatican crypt ran a spy ring that betrayed German war plans and wounded Hitler in a briefcase bombing.

The plotters made history in ways they hardly expected. They inspired European unification, forged a U.S.-Vatican alliance that spanned the Cold War, and challenged Church teachings on Jews. Yet Pius' secret war muted his public response to Nazi crimes. Fearing that overt protest would impede his covert actions, he never spoke the "fiery words" he wanted.

Told with heart-pounding suspense, based on secret transcripts and unsealed files,  Church of Spies throws open the Vatican's doors to reveal some of the most astonishing events in the history of the papacy." 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

You're posting more demonic lies.

 

[little2add]

 

 

[Guest]

Okay so it's all lies then. Someone planted it in the Vatican. Maybe it was Pope Francis and that's why he unsealed the records. And all the child sex abuse never happened either. It's all just lies to make Catholics look bad. Glad you have it figured out. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Guest

[little2add]

1 hour ago, Delivery said:

so it's all lies then

Yes, Santa Claus ,the easter bunny and the fourth of july.    All lies

Edited May 10, 2020 by little2add

[Guest]

Anomaly nailed it earlier when replying to you. Just expand it to all subjects.

[tinytherese]

For my Bachelor of Arts in Theology, I did my senior thesis paper where I investigated how Pope Pius VII handled the Holocaust. I've done some digging around and for some reason I only have a saved copy of my rough draft and the formatting is off. I'm doing my best to fix it. Maybe I can find someone who can find my final draft or I can just post what I have. My research includes cited sources.

I'll get back to you. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, tinytherese said:

For my Bachelor of Arts in Theology, I did my senior thesis paper where I investigated how Pope Pius VII handled the Holocaust. I've done some digging around and for some reason I only have a saved copy of my rough draft and the formatting is off. I'm doing my best to fix it. Maybe I can find someone who can find my final draft or I can just post what I have. My research includes cited sources.

I'll get back to you. 

Cool will be interested in reading. You do acknowledge these new findings are relevant right? They've just started with the opening of the archives. Although they are suspended right now due to Covid-19.

Also it's not a demonic hit piece like fanatics upthread would have you believe. The article concludes with this:

Edited May 10, 2020 by Guest

[Norseman82]

9 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

I suggest an actual objective and balanced book on the topic. Pope Pius XII was actively involved with attempting to remove Hitler from power by deadly force and saving Jewish people. 

Church of Spies: The Pope's Secret War Against Hitler by Mark Riebling

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465094112/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_3mbUEbKGQ0EMS

"Hailed as "powerful and provocative" ( Washington Post), "heart-pounding" ( New York Times) and "brilliant" ( Kirkus), intelligence expert Mark Riebling's groundbreaking book  Wedge inspired "no fewer than seven assorted congressional committees, internal evaluators, and blue-ribbon panels" ( Wall Street Journal). Now, in the long-awaited  Church of Spies, Riebling documents an epic secret battle in the Second World War -- and reframes one of the great historical controversies of our age.

The Vatican's stance toward Nazism is fiercely debated. History has accused wartime pontiff Pius the Twelfth of complicity in the Holocaust and dubbed him "Hitler's Pope." But a key part of the story has remained untold.
 

Pius ran the world's largest church, smallest state, and oldest spy service. Saintly but secretive, he skimmed from church charities to pay covert couriers, and surreptitiously tape-recorded his meetings with top Nazis. When he learned of the Holocaust, Pius played his cards close to his chest. He sent birthday cards to Hitler--while plotting to overthrow him.

Church of Spies documents this cross-and-dagger intrigue in shocking detail. Gun-toting Jesuits stole blueprints to Hitler's homes. A Catholic book publisher flew a sports plane over the Alps with secrets filched from the head of Hitler's bodyguard. The keeper of the Vatican crypt ran a spy ring that betrayed German war plans and wounded Hitler in a briefcase bombing.

The plotters made history in ways they hardly expected. They inspired European unification, forged a U.S.-Vatican alliance that spanned the Cold War, and challenged Church teachings on Jews. Yet Pius' secret war muted his public response to Nazi crimes. Fearing that overt protest would impede his covert actions, he never spoke the "fiery words" he wanted.

Told with heart-pounding suspense, based on secret transcripts and unsealed files,  Church of Spies throws open the Vatican's doors to reveal some of the most astonishing events in the history of the papacy." 

That would make an amesome movie or mini-series! 

Another good book that I have heard about is "Hitler, the War, and the Pope" by Ronald Rychlak.  I believe there it is revealed that it was the Pope, via a coded Christmas message, was trying to alert the world to the Holocaust. 

 

[tinytherese]

8 hours ago, tinytherese said:

For my Bachelor of Arts in Theology, I did my senior thesis paper where I investigated how Pope Pius VII handled the Holocaust. I've done some digging around and for some reason I only have a saved copy of my rough draft and the formatting is off. I'm doing my best to fix it. Maybe I can find someone who can find my final draft or I can just post what I have. My research includes cited sources.

I'll get back to you. 

Well that's embarrassing. I meant to write Pope Pius XII, not VII. Darn Roman numerals. It would be easier if we just wrote the actual number.

[Aloysius]

Delivery, to get some balance, here's a good run-down of the scholars who say wolf is taking that memo very much out of context.  here's an article you should really read through to think about the context:

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2020/05/01/scholars-dispute-charge-of-pius-xii-holocaust-cover-up/?fbclid=IwAR3a4q1zzx26SIPcHlih4RIttT54N3G3d2LvollxyHdOSimrigHsKE6UeWo

the key quote from the memo (which is just from a staffer to the secretary of state) is "‘It is necessary to assure that they are true, since exaggerations happen easily, also among Jews.’"--Wolf is entirely disingenuous to argue that this phrasing is antisemitic.  I suppose I'd have to see the original Italian, but if this translation is accurate, "also among Jews" clearly means that he is wary of claims by any group, including Jews, who might be prone to exaggerate a charge against their enemy, which was an issue in WWI as all sides were exaggerating atrocities committed by their adversaries (and downplaying their own, welcome to the sad untrustworthy state of fallen human nature), so this staffer was warning to be cautious of the reports until they could be verified.

by all means, if the evidence leads that way we should be willing to criticize Pius XII, but the vast majority of the evidence I've seen on the subject indicates he was thoroughly against the Nazis, even to the point of giving papal blessing to plots to assassinate Hitler, forging baptismal certificates to help Jews escape, and hiding many Jews in the Vatican itself.  this lone memo does not seem to say anything to the contrary, just reveals a moment in time when the Vatican's diplomatic core were trying to parse out what was really going on.  the fact that it's a memo from a staffer means it's an internal conversation as they try to figure out the facts, so it is entirely understandable in that context to raise questions and doubts about any and all claims.

Of course now that the archive is open we will see more detailed information and must be open to whatever that might be, no man is perfect so I'm certain we could find something to criticize (at the very least with the benefit of hindsight)--though I find it unlikely, given the weight of other evidence we have, that we would find something indicating he was complicit or indifferent to the holocaust in any way.  Wolf's supposed smoking gun, however, remains entirely unconvincing and far outweighed by the evidence we do have of Pius XII trying to save as many Jews as possible.  do give a look at that CNA article to consider some of the context, at least.

[Anastasia]

By the way, it is good to remember that Holocaust did not happen only to Jews. Gypsies were to be exterminated as well yet this fact is chronically forgotten. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Aloysius said:

Delivery, to get some balance, here's a good run-down of the scholars who say wolf is taking that memo very much out of context.  here's an article you should really read through to think about the context:

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2020/05/01/scholars-dispute-charge-of-pius-xii-holocaust-cover-up/?fbclid=IwAR3a4q1zzx26SIPcHlih4RIttT54N3G3d2LvollxyHdOSimrigHsKE6UeWo

Thanks brother. I read it. I will be interested to see how this plays out once research resumes.

 

On 5/10/2020 at 3:59 PM, Delivery said:

It looks like it could go either way.

[Aloysius]

 

11 hours ago, Delivery said:

Thanks brother. I read it. I will be interested to see how this plays out once research resumes.

 

It looks like it could go either way.

Sure thing, man. 

It would be extremely surprising to me if it went very far against Pius XII, knowing all the other mounted evidence of the things Pius XII did to try to save people and work against Hitler (including blessing assassination plots of Hitler!).  Could something come out that Pius XII could be criticized for?  Absolutely.  But the likelihood that we will see anything about Pius XII turning a blind eye due to antisemitism or any such thing would be so outrageously contrary to the evidence we DO have of his actions I'd be very surprised to see it, and I'd have to figure out how to interpret all the historical facts that indicate the contrary.

what we could easily see are various things come to light where we, with the benefit of hindsight, can say "he could have done more".  but more than that?  then how could we explain all the Jews he helped smuggle to safety?  how could we explain his support of plots to assassinate Hitler?  all the Jews who were hidden in the Vatican?

Of course it's good that the archives are being studied.  But if Wolf's characterization of this quote is any indication, we may be in store for attempts to wrench a lot of things out of context for sensationalism.  be careful of headlines, always look for context.

16 hours ago, Anastasia said:

By the way, it is good to remember that Holocaust did not happen only to Jews. Gypsies were to be exterminated as well yet this fact is chronically forgotten. 

Of course, I'm focusing on Jews here because that seems to be the accusation leveled at Pius XII--that he was silent because he was antisemitic.  I think there's just way too much evidence that this is not true, but in order to discuss that charge we do need to focus on what his actions in relation to Jews were during this time.

[Anastasia]

Aloysius

Thank you for your explanation.

24 minutes ago, Aloysius said:

because that seems to be the accusation leveled at Pius XII--that he was silent because he was antisemitic.

Then the question is (not for you but for them) why they do not also accuse him of being "anti-Gypsist" and also ignore others assigned for destruction  and destroyed in huge numbers like invalids, mentally ill, homosexuals (exterminated in Germany), Jehovah's Witnesses and Communists? (it is just a side thought).

Edited May 13, 2020 by Anastasia

[Aloysius]

38 minutes ago, Anastasia said:

Aloysius

Thank you for your explanation.

Then the question is (not for you but for them) why they do not also accuse him of being "anti-Gypsist" and also ignore others assigned for destruction  and destroyed in huge numbers like invalids, mentally ill, homosexuals (exterminated in Germany), Jehovah's Witnesses and Communists? (it is just a side thought).

the point is that the accusation is that the reason he was silent was because he was antisemitic.  I think that tends to be the narrative about the motivations they ascribe to him when they accuse him of not doing enough.  their argument is not "he didn't do enough against the holocaust, therefore he's antisemitic (and anti-all the things you list)", it's "he was motivated by antisemitism (which was sadly endemic to Catholic history for a long time) into turning a blind eye to the holocaust".  I'm sure if you accepted the premise that he was turning a blind eye to the holocaust, you could accuse him of any of those other motivations also, but IF that premise was true and it was motivated by an anti-anything, the thread of antisemitism in Catholic history WOULD be the most likely motivation to ascribe to it.  I doubt anti-gypsism would really likely be a motivation one would accuse him of, though maybe anti-communism could be conflated with antisemitism as a motivation that could be leveled at him IF one accepted the premise (which I remain unconvinced by, in fact I remain rather convinced of the opposite based on the history I've seen)

actually his anti-communism does tie into the story.  people first seemed to start accusing him of being complicit with the Nazis right around the time he spoke against communist parties in Italy in the 1950's.

[Anastasia]

I was trying to ascertain if St Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein) wrote to that Pope but it appears she wrote to his predecessor.

"Stein wrote an impassioned and extraordinarily prescient appeal to Pope Pius XI in 1933, urging him to galvanise the church against the Nazi persecution of the Jews.

Stein's letter received no answer, and it is not known for sure whether Pius XI even read it. What is known is that Sant'Uffizzio, the Vatican office that deals with heresy, planned a "sillabo" – a condemnation – "of the errors of Hitler and Lenin", in 1933 and 1934, but it never saw the light of day. And Pope Pius XI, who whether or not he saw Stein's letter, was alive to Nazism's evils, planned an encyclical against anti-Semitism, but after his death in 1939 his successor, Pius XII, it is alleged, shelved it."

Further the author mentions "a forgotten German Jesuit priest called Friedrich Muckermann, wrote a letter as prescient in its way as Stein's. It was directed to Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, later Pope Pius XII, in 1934, and in it he described Nazism as "a real religion ... a religion that works with revolutionary dynamism and which works above all on subhuman instincts. What confronts us is a phenomenon of diabolical violence ... National Socialism and Neopaganism are identical.

"What is the problem with the Church?" Muckermann went on to ask. "Often it lacks courage ... 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/this-europe-letters-reveal-auschwitz-victims-plea-to-pope-pius-xi-119745.html

I have no idea how close the above to the topic; perhaps I simply feel that it is good to provide some examples of Roman Catholics who did fight although the majority of the Church was silent.

I have a book on this topic which I highly recommend: Ultimate Price: Testimonies of Christians Who Resisted the Third Reich by Annemarie S. Kidder. She provides plentiful texts written by those people. Of course Dietrich Bonhoeffer is there bit there are also others not so well known.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Anastasia

[Lea]

The overall impression stays that the church(es) did not enough to stop the Nazis. They could and should have done more (as everyone else, of course, as those cruelties were not hidden). 

It might be a little offtopic, but I strongly recommend to read Alfred Delp SJ's notes in prison, if available in your languages. 

[Aloysius]

I definitely think it's right to say that overall the church did not do enough.

I think it's good to get the whole picture, though.  Pius XII seems to have navigated the issue from behind the scenes because he felt that would be more effective than loudly proclaiming against the Nazis and inviting retaliation and escalation.  So he ordered churches in Rome to hide Jews, even the Vatican itself, and through many back channels tried to help Jews and others escape.  He even gave his blessing to attempts to assassinate Hitler.

His strategy can be criticized, definitely.  But it should be recognized as a strategy, not as an endorsement of the Nazis as some have slandered (IMO) him with.  What would have happened if he had been more confrontational with the Nazis?  Hard to say, historical what-ifs are impossible to know for sure (except that we know Edith Keeler must die! that's a star trek refernce lol).  But I think it's valid to say it would have been a show of moral courage if he had done so, and it's valid to think he should have.

Anyway, I will look forward to what more evidence arises from the archives when the study resumes.  I'm sure there will be some positive and some negative aspects of what emerges, I just hope the sensationalism is avoided (though I know it won't be lol)