Gay Priests

[Norseman82]

Let's not debate about what this person has said. I am not endorsing it. I do not approve of it. I am just showing you how some people think. I do not agree with it. I do not support it. I am against homosexuals being ordained as ministers. Clear?

No argument from me on this one!!

Oh, skuba, I enjoy puns, but please try being a little more delicate for any of the very young people that might be browsing. Thanks!

Edited September 14, 2003 by Norseman82

[Theologian in Training]

This argument has been posed before, dragged out, and beaten repeatedly like the poor dead horse that it has become. However, as Dave said, seminaries are houses of formation for men and of men. Granted, there are woman around, professors, secretaries, etc., but seminaries primarily contain men. Now, I know Nathan disagrees with me on this point, so we need not resurrect sore points, but putting a gay man in a house of formation with other men is a temptation.

No, gay men are not animals nor should they be treated as thus, however, being in a house of all men, of all walks of life, of all different attractiveness would have some bearing on how well a man gets along in that house. I am not saying that he cannot control his urges, nor am I trying to imply that it is impossible for a gay man to live in a seminary, rather, I personally think it would be very difficult for a gay man.

Nathan particularly you have to realize that same men you are attracted to now could be the same type of men you would find in a seminary. Now that isn't to say you wouldn't be able to exert self-control, but hypothetically what would happen if you found yourself really attracted to a man or men in the seminary, how would you deal with those urges?

On second though, perhaps I am approaching this from the wrong angle. I think where the confusion lies is in trying to understand the attraction in the context of an attraction of man to a woman. Is the attraction similar, different, completely new? I mean when I try to understand where you are coming from the only way I can think of it is if I were to be in a house with many different women and the potential difficulties that would cause not because I wouldn't be able to control myself, but because of the environment, the close contact, and other little factors that would make it more difficult than anything else.

It would be one thing if it were a couple of days, maybe even a couple of months, but 4-7 years with the same women and others coming in....I don't know, I would think it would certainly wear on my vocation if anything else.

Personally, I think a man coming into a seminary with SSA would encounter difficulties, whether or not he would be able to overcome them, would be through God's grace, his own strength, and his own resolve to do what God wants him to do. Who knows maybe it is possible, for all things are possible with God.

God Bless

[cmotherofpirl]

**Free does an impression of a so-called 'debate' on phatmass**

Steve,

We don't mean to make you feel that way...but the fact is there is nothing else but the teachings of the Catholic Church in life, and everything else is wrong. We are going to sugar coat it and dance around the fact that we are truly closed-minded, and say sentances that begin with

"we are not saying we don't love you"

"we care about you"

"we can't say you're going to hell"

But what we are really trying to say is "If you don't agree with what we are trying to explain to you we are simply going to remind  you that there is an absolute truth (which we along with God possess) and that if you disagree with us you (like us) are still a sinner but we should just let you know that you are a GRAVE sinner, and that if you don't shape up or ship out of the Church (and yes, they will tell you to ship out if you don't concurr) than basically you're in it deep.

And no Steve, on this board your experience or faith counts for nothing in the debate. The only thing that counts is whether your experience jives with the rules.

Its sad you think Truth is your enemy and not your friiend.

[FreeSoul]

I don't think in terms of enemies and friends. I don't believe in enemies.

I don't however believe that anyone on earth has access to the Fullness of Truth which God posesses. This imo is pride.

-----------

As to the earlier comment about my being bigoted, I don't think a disjointed barb is going to cut it. I'll need something from my behaviour which resembles proof of my bigotry before we can begin to talk.

I read and listen to EVERYTHING that is presented to me, I do not ignore it or dismiss it as being the result or close-minded/conservative or restrained upbringing, despite the temptation. I always question myself. It is fair to see judge and act...but I don't do it as quickly as many people online here do. I wait and contemplate.

No, it is not 'sad that I think that the truth is my enemy' But I do think it's sad that people on this board act like born again Christians trying to save me. God already did it!

It is NOT sad because I have already dedicated my whole life to God.

It is NOT that I am not listening.

It IS that I am human and I move at my own pace, the pace that is the result of being a human created by God.

Reminding me a million times about the grave condition that I am in is not going to change that. Nor should it.

I am sorry if I don't change at the blow of your whistle...I can't lie about how I feel or agree with you JUST because you have a million quotes with you. I need to THINK for myself, I need to pray with God and I need to listen more. And if you're still not satisfied that I share your opinons, well that's tough I don't care that I am not Catholic enough for you. It's your party.

Edited September 14, 2003 by FreeSoul

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't think in terms of enemies and friends. I don't believe in enemies.

I don't however believe that anyone on earth has access to the Fullness of Truth which God posesses. This imo is pride.

-----------

As to the earlier comment about my being bigoted, I don't think a disjointed barb is going to cut it. I'll need something from my behaviour which resembles proof of my bigotry before we can begin to talk.

I read and listen to EVERYTHING that is presented to me, I do not ignore it or dismiss it as being the result or close-minded/conservative or restrained upbringing, despite the temptation. I always question myself. It is fair to see judge and act...but I don't do it as quickly as many people online here do. I wait and contemplate.

No, it is not 'sad that I think that the truth is my enemy' But I do think it's sad that people on this board act like born again Christians trying to save me. God already did it!

It is NOT sad because I have already dedicated my whole life to God.

It is NOT that I am not listening.

It IS that I am human and I move at my own pace, the pace that is the result of being a human created by God.

Reminding me a million times about the grave condition that I am in is not going to change that. Nor should it.

I am sorry if I don't change at the blow of your whistle...I can't lie about how I feel or agree with you JUST because you have a million quotes with you. I need to THINK for myself, I need to pray with God and I need to listen more. And if you're still not satisfied that I share your opinons, well that's tough I don't care that I am not Catholic enough for you. It's your party.

You don't believe that the Church has the fullness of faith?

"but the fact is there is nothing else but the teachings of the Catholic Church in life, and everything else is wrong. We are going to sugar coat it and dance around the fact that we are truly closed-minded, and say sentances that begin with"

Because we believe in absolute truth we are close minded?

I am simply responding to your comments.

I have not called you a bigot.

I haven't said a word about you being a sinner either.

[FreeSoul]

The Church has the fullness of Faith yes, and the Church isn't just Catholics. It isn't any one individual or even any group, the Church consists of all the people of God, and don't we believe that God exists in everyone? Unless we have given up faith in others.

Nope, I too believe there is an absolute truth, but to me it seems like people on this board state that all the truth is listed in what the magesterium has taught, what the clergy have taught and that there is nothing left to learn, outside of that especially from those who are affected by the topics of this board or anything controversial, or foreign.

"I am simply responding to your comments.

I have not called you a bigot.

I haven't said a word about you being a sinner either."

The bigot thing was adressed to an earlier post, not yours.

& I know you didn't say anything about me being a sinner, you don't have to. All you have to tell me is that I should go and find another church. I have heard that enough times on these boards (adressed to me and others) to have more than enough reason to feel like much less than a sinner.

[cmotherofpirl]

Free Soul how do you define the people of God?

How do you know God exists in everyone? Do you think God existed in Hitler?

I do not.

I believe God has given everyone a soul. However one can choose to let God into that soul. One can also choose evil, and keep God out.

I think there are loads of things to discuss. Anything that hasn't been defined as dogma is open to discussion and debate. Right now I am reading the Old Testament and have zillions of points of interest. THere are tons of things I want to read and discuss yet on Catholic social teaching, sustainable economics and the Church etc.

I have said maybe people who call themselves catholic and disbelieve its teachings should look elsewhere. THat is not to make people leave, but to reexamine what they believe and why and to think about that fullness of faith, they profess on Sunday. People who say sure I am catholic and have abortions, who beleive Jesus was just a moral teacher (not God as well), who thinks mass is a do it yourself activity etc.

Think of all those "catholic" politicians who vote for abortion , who vote to cut medicaid, who vote for the right to committ suicide who called themselves CATHOLIC.

Finally we are all sinners, mortal and venial. If I have offended you I apologize. Being a mom with many teenagers, somewtimes I yell to get a point across.

[FreeSoul]

I believe that we all belong to God.

I believe the God existed in Hitler because even though Hitler did more than a purely WICKED thing, as long as he was alive he had hope, because God is there and everywhere for people. I need to have faith that God is reaching everyone because ultimately even though we are imperfect God is perfect and can reach us where ever we may be at...even if where we are at is at a point of incomprehensible sin.

I guess we can keep God out, I don't know how anyone but God can tell if that has happened though, and because I love God and I can help someone know and love me as a person by just being there for a person, not necessarily acting intentionally to preach or change, but just by existing and making my best effort to be good, I can say...there's just NO WAY you can hate me, and I guess as long as you love something...then God can help you.

What the Heck is going on here? EVERYONE does stupid stuff all the time!!??!! It's called humanity! So what, you're gonna say you better get the heck out of here because you're not living up to the Christian standard...like WHO IS! Someone who disagrees w/ church teaching (if that's a sin imo, it's not) would be like an alcoholic who doesn't admit their problem, you don't kick them out on the street so that they can get drunk and hit by a car, you take them in and help them get what they need, let them come around in their own time because you ultimately have NO control over what they want in life, no matter how much bopping over the head you give people.

I think there is a better and much less hurtful way to get people to examine what they believe. The test of power if the most effect with the least amount of force. How do you know people aren't listening to you? How do you know that they think mass is a do it yourself activity, How do you know the mental state or condition of a woman who has an abortion, How do you know that afterwards what she needs is to hear from you a steward of the Church, 'you're not Catholic in my opinion'.

Isn't there a more compassionate way to approach people? Isn't that what people need?

[Thomas Michael]

I say: as long as they take their vow of celibacy seriously, homosexual men should be permitted into the priesthood. If we're not gonna ordain the female or the married, then we need all the help we can get.

[JP2Iloveyou]

I say: as long as they take their vow of celibacy seriously, homosexual men should be permitted into the priesthood. If we're not gonna ordain the female or the married, then we need all the help we can get.

First of all, that is not correct. We do ordain married men to the priesthood, albeit very few. It is impossible to ordain women. I'm sorry, but it's not going to happen. The Holy Father, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Bevilaqua, and Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz, among others, have all said that we should not ordain homesexuals to the priesthood. I side with them. It's nothing against homosexual people. I know people with this orientation and they are loved by God. However, they are not called to the priesthood. I think we need to trust His Holiness on this one.

[Joolye]

If homosexuals do not think that homosexuality is sinful, then they should not be ordained, practising or not.

[jasJis]

Why Joolye?

There are some people who think stealing from a corporation isn't wrong because techinically, no individual get's harmed. Wouldn't that be the same standard? We would personally (instead of God) determine what's harmful or right.

[Joolye]

Yes it would be! Sin is sin!! If you say that something is not a sin that the Bible clearly says is a sin, then you have to throw half the Bible out the window!

God determines what is right and wrong, but he tells us clearly in the Bible what is right and wrong.

[cmotherofpirl]

THe why do so many churches disagree with the bible?

What about the churches who are ordaining active homosexuals. surely they can read the bible?

THey think they are guided by th Holy Spirit.

[jasJis]

If homosexuals do not think that homosexuality is sinful, then they should not be ordained, practising or not.

Mea culpa! (That's latin for I'm stupidly wrong).

I misread your post. I agree with you. I read it as "If homosexuals do not think that homosexuality is sinful, then they should be ordained, practising or not."

I didn't see the "should not be ordained".

Does that make me a 'not head? :rolleyes: