Do We Have To Argue?

[Robyn]

I've discovered there is NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE relating to praying to Mary...HOWEVER there is ALSO NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE not to.

Don't know if that means anything to you, but it doesn'r change my view at all. Mary was Mary. She lived. She died. I'll see her in heaven.

[VanHooty]

Well, there are Biblical references to praying to the saints. One such example would be Revelation 5:8.

And, since you yourself seem to believe Mary is in heaven, what's wrong with asking for her intercession?

[Robyn]

Because I don't believe she is alive.

and to me, anything in Revelation is related to the End Times. It's a vision.

[VanHooty]

...

...

I believe she's alive. I mean... uh... well... I do profess the belief in life after death... so... yeah.

Heck, since she is in heaven and is in complete union with God (not that she hasn't always been... but that's another argument for another time), one can think of her as more alive then those of us on Earth.

Edited September 1, 2003 by VanHooty

[Dave]

I've discovered there is NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE relating to praying to Mary...HOWEVER there is ALSO NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE not to.

Don't know if that means anything to you, but it doesn'r change my view at all. Mary was Mary. She lived. She died. I'll see her in heaven.

That's a non-answer. It's like you ignored what ironmonk said and are simply parroting what you've been taught.

But first of all, if you read some of these threads, you'll see that the idea that everything a Christian believes must be spelled out in scripture is a man-made idea that nullifies the Word of God. No Christian believed that until Martin Luther, a mere man who had his own agenda, came on the scene.

Secondly, do you ask your friends to pray for you and with you? That's what we're doing when we pray to Mary -- we ask her to pray for us and with us.

And Mary is not dead now. She's alive in heaven, body and soul. At the end of her life (we don't know for sure if she actually died first), she was assumed by Jesus, body and soul, into heaven.

[cmotherofpirl]

Why wouldn't she be alive?

Moses was alive when he talked to Jesus at the transfiguration. So was Elijah.

God is a God of the living.

Their bodies might be long gone, like a discarded envelope, but their souls and personalities are very much alive.

Life is changed, not ended , remember?

[ironmonk]

Because I don't believe she is alive.

and to me, anything in Revelation is related to the End Times. It's a vision.

Remember when Moses came to Jesus... Even the Apostles saw him.

Moses is very alive. Likewise, so is Mary.

The saints in Heaven, are more alive than we are.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

1 Cor. 12:26- when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God. This proves the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers are united.

Rev. 6:9-11 - God answers the prayers of the saints. In this case, he avenges their blood. We therefore ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 - in heaven the prayers of the saints rise up as incense before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his childrens' requests.

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but allows and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

I hope that helps your understanding....

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk