Advice?

[Kateri89]

I work in a small office of about 10 people and one of my coworkers recently eloped with her fiancé.  She is a lapsed Catholic and it wasn’t a sacramental wedding.  Well my coworkers want to throw her a mini bridal shower now after the fact because we didn’t know she was planning to elope.  

The question is, do I go to the shower? If I don’t go, I won’t lie as to why I’m not going but I’m also thinking it would create tension in the workplace.  If I do go, does it make me an accessory to sin as though I’m celebrating a civil, non-sacramental union?  Before the elopement she was planning on a civil ceremony so I sent her a video on why marriage is a sacrament but I have no idea if she watched it.  Does that mean that I did my part and my conscience can be clear about going to the shower? Or does it still give a wrong impression to my other coworkers?  I’m not sure what to do so I appreciate any advice.

[Anastasia]

I do not know about the Catholic Church but the Eastern Orthodox Church considered civil registered marriages as fully valid - even in a case if it is a marriage of the Orthodox (who, for some reason, are unable to do a sacramental wedding). In a case of your coworker, it would be far worse if she did a sacramental marriage without believing.
So, as an Orthodox I cannot see any problem with attending a bridal shower but one - namely that the person is married already so the bridal shower (even mini) seems to be quite meaningless.

[Kateri89]

1 hour ago, Anastasia said:

I do not know about the Catholic Church but the Eastern Orthodox Church considered civil registered marriages as fully valid - even in a case if it is a marriage of the Orthodox (who, for some reason, are unable to do a sacramental wedding). In a case of your coworker, it would be far worse if she did a sacramental marriage without believing.
So, as an Orthodox I cannot see any problem with attending a bridal shower but one - namely that the person is married already so the bridal shower (even mini) seems to be quite meaningless.

Well I actually asked the guys at Catholic Amswers and they said it’s a judgment call but I can’t figure out what’s best.  The Catholic teaching is that baptized Catholics have to have a sacramental wedding unless given special dispensation by their priest.  Honestly, that makes sense to me because none of the other sacraments are treated the way marriage is.  Nobody would go to a judge to baptize their baby or to receive the Eucharist or any other sacrament so I don’t know why people treat marriage differently.  I understand that there are legal effects that come with civil marriages but even still, the sacramental aspect is ignored far too often.

I also think that people have a serious lack of understanding of the priesthood, and I’m guessing this happens with the Orthodox priests as well.  I don’t know how much the teaching varies between Catholics and Orthodox but Catholics believe that the priest has special graces that he receives at ordination so that he acts in persona Christi.  Of course we also believe that the sacraments are not mere symbols but channels of grace so to speak, i.e. baptismal regeneration, the true presence of our Lord in the Eucharist, etc.  This means that there are particular graces associated with marriage and those graces aren’t administered through a judge or other “minister”.  It also comes back to the idea that marriage between a man and woman is a covenant that reflects the relationship between Jesus the Bridegroom and His bride, the Church.  That’s completely absent in a civil ceremony.  Maybe I’m overthinking this but it’s so sad to see people with a complete lack of understanding of the sacraments.  I’d love a good book recommendation on the sacraments to help people better understand.

[Ice_nine]

my sister got married outside of the church, my brother likely will as well. It was a pretty tough decision, but I ended up going to my sister's wedding after talking to a priest about it.

As I understand, it's an issue of canon law. It wasn't always the case that marriages by christians outside of the church were invalid. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought of the damage of my not attending, or being the maid of honor, maybe part of it was that I was a coward. May God forgive me if that is the case. However, I didn't think it would make the church look more appealing to my sister or any of my lapsed family (most of my immediate and extended family are lapsed). Now a Voris type might say "tough luck, the church isn't here to look appealing, it's here to stand for truth", and that's correct, however with the church already looking pretty bad (think sexual abuse scandals, clericalism, hypocritical clergy, perceived hyper-judgementalism) I don't know that that type of witness would have done anything good. But again, maybe I am just a coward.

But there's also the idea that I don't really want people to get married in the church if they don't believe in the church's teaching. While that may not invalidate the sacrament it would certainly be illicit and mortal sin. So while being civilly married is not perfect, I think it's a step in the right direction, and I pray that maybe one day they will revert. I should pray more for that.

So it became a thing, can God use my support of this step in the right direction (albeit not exactly on the straight and narrow) to one day bring my siblings back to the church? I don't know.

 

As far as with a co-worker though, here's what I did with a casual friend in a similar vacation, I basically made up an excuse and didn't go. It wasn't a lie, I told them I had to work, which I did, but I could have taken time off if I was really more dead set on going.

[elizabeth09]

6 hours ago, Kateri89 said:

I work in a small office of about 10 people and one of my coworkers recently eloped with her fiancé.  She is a lapsed Catholic and it wasn’t a sacramental wedding.  Well my coworkers want to throw her a mini bridal shower now after the fact because we didn’t know she was planning to elope.  

The question is, do I go to the shower? If I don’t go, I won’t lie as to why I’m not going but I’m also thinking it would create tension in the workplace.  If I do go, does it make me an accessory to sin as though I’m celebrating a civil, non-sacramental union?  Before the elopement she was planning on a civil ceremony so I sent her a video on why marriage is a sacrament but I have no idea if she watched it.  Does that mean that I did my part and my conscience can be clear about going to the shower? Or does it still give a wrong impression to my other coworkers?  I’m not sure what to do so I appreciate any advice.

I say go.  If you feel like talking to a priest about this, this questions are importing.  I have a cousin, who was married this past October, and were living together, and I still want.

[Anastasia]

2 hours ago, Kateri89 said:

I also think that people have a serious lack of understanding of the priesthood, and I’m guessing this happens with the Orthodox priests as well.  I don’t know how much the teaching varies between Catholics and Orthodox but Catholics believe that the priest has special graces that he receives at ordination so that he acts in persona Christi.

Judging by what I see in the West it seems to me that the Eastern Orthodox preserve a correct attitude to a priest a bit better than Roman Catholics . I may be mistaken of course. In any case, they still chase priests for the purpose of getting their blessings and kiss their hand no matter where those priests are, even on the beach (and this can be a nuisance for poor priests on holidays).

Just like Catholics we do believe that a priest receives a special grace of priesthood as we call it but, unlike Catholics, we do not hold the view that a priest undergoes some kind of ontological change (unlike nuns and monks).

As for the marriage, it is sacrament of course. We believe the marriage is conducted not by a couple but by God via a priest. The rule states that two Orthodox should marry in the Church. However, the Eastern Orthodox Church uses the principle of so-called oikonomia that is a suspension of rules/law when the ultimate spiritual good can be gained. An example: a couple has been married for years (civil marriage). Both were nominal Orthodox i.e. baptized in infancy non-believers; a wife became non-nominal and wants to have a sacramental marriage but her husband opposes because “he would not be sincere”. A priest may advise her not to press him but to pray instead and wait and gain him back to the Church via obedience.

Hence, if I was in your case I would consider what can be gained if I go or not go. But again, we not have that legalism (Orthodox often blame Catholics for "legalism" and Catholics often blame Orthodox for "oikonomia").

Edited July 29, 2020 by Anastasia

[Norseman82]

You could also find you have a "scheduling conflict" that you could use as an excuse to not go.  

[Kateri89]

7 hours ago, Norseman82 said:

You could also find you have a "scheduling conflict" that you could use as an excuse to not go.  

I sort of tried that and it didn’t work.  I had travelled recently via airplane and was self-quarantining for a couple of weeks and said I couldn’t go for that reason which was entirely true.  Then they told me that the quarantine is only 10 days, not 14 so I can go.

I think I’ll end up going, but I have an obligation at some point in the future to discuss the importance of the sacramental aspect of the marriage.  I don’t know, I’ll figure it out I guess.  I appreciate everyone’s input!

9 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

So it became a thing, can God use my support of this step in the right direction (albeit not exactly on the straight and narrow) to one day bring my siblings back to the church? I don't know.

 

As far as with a co-worker though, here's what I did with a casual friend in a similar vacation, I basically made up an excuse and didn't go. It wasn't a lie, I told them I had to work, which I did, but I could have taken time off if I was really more dead set on going.

That’s basically where my mind is at.  I feel like if I don’t go, it won’t be very likely to get her to ever consider practicing her faith again if she thinks that Catholics are always judgmental.

I did try to get out of going with a separate excuse which was that I was quarantining due to recent air travel.  It was 100% true but they said the quarantine for that is 10 days, not 14 so I’d be able to go which meant that excuse backfired.

[Norseman82]

17 hours ago, Kateri89 said:

Then they told me that the quarantine is only 10 days, not 14 so I can go.

They may be mistaken or lying - most places are 14 days,unless you can be shown on a local government website that only 10 are required.  Otherwise, don't you have a cat that needs an enema or something that day?  (That's my latest joke excuse).  

Barring that, maybe give a family Bible (Catholic edition) as a gift?

[Aloysius]

Actually, in the Roman Catholic Church, it is the couple themselves that are the ministers of the sacrament.  A priest in the Latin Rite does NOT perform the sacrament of marriage (merely witnesses and blesses it in the name of the church), and hence marriages done outside the church may still be fully valid sacramental marriages, they are illicit but not invalid, because it is the man and wife who marry each other. 

see CCC 1623:

Quote

1623 According to Latin tradition, the spouses as ministers of Christ's grace mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the tradition of the Eastern Churches, the priests (bishops or presbyters) are witnesses to the mutual consent given by the spouses,124 but for the validity of the sacrament their blessing is also necessary.125"

It is only in the Eastern tradition that the absence of a priest might render a marriage sacramentally invalid.  (my understanding is this is also the Eastern Orthodox tradition, though the CCC quote can only speak for the Eastern Catholic tradition, of course)

Catholics who have married outside the church may certainly be said to have a fully sacramental and indissoluble marriage (in fact this is to be presumed in canon law until/unless shown otherwise) but because it is illicit the Church would require them to get it convalidated in the Church, but that would NOT mean that it was invalid before the church ceremony, in a convalidation ceremony the Church would bless the union and consider them to have been sacramentally married since the time she had eloped.

Anyway, I don't think you should refuse to go to a congratulatory celebration of their marriage.  If she's a lapsed Catholic then all you can do is share with her, pray for her, and hope for her to return to the faith some day, and if that day ever happens she would need to get a convalidation.  but no good would come of you disrespecting her marriage or not recognizing it or congratulating her on it IMO, treat it as canon law would and presume it to be valid and congratulate her (making clear to her to whatever extent is appropriate in your friendship with her that if she wants to follow the Church she would need to get it convalidated... but that's more something that would flow as a consequence of her returning to the faith rather than something to argue to her while she is lapsed from the faith, as without the faith that's a pretty futile point)

[Anastasia]

1 hour ago, Aloysius said:

It is only in the Eastern tradition that the absence of a priest might render a marriage sacramentally invalid.  (my understanding is this is also the Eastern Orthodox tradition, though the CCC quote can only speak for the Eastern Catholic tradition, of course)

Well, Aloysius, if the priest was absent then there would be no wedding in the church ). However, in a case if a priest was under a prohibition or a schismatic then a marriage he celebrates would not be sacramental.

Russian Orthodox Church considers civil marriage valid and sound. In fact, a couple of decades ago Patriarch issued a document which addressed the cases when some priests prohibited those who were civilly married (not in the church) to receive communion saying that "they fornicate". The priests were rebuked and prohibited to act that way.

However, the sacrament of marriage, the ceremony, did not appear in the Church until 7c. at least I think. Before there would be a civil marriage and then a bride and a bridegroom would simply receive communion together and maybe also receive a blessing.

[Aloysius]

Interesting.  It was always my impression that Orthodox Theology considers the priest to actually be the one who enacts the sacrament as he does with the Eucharist, for instance.  This is not the case in Catholic theology, where the man and woman are considered to be the ministers of the sacrament.  How that translates into recognizing civil marriages is an interesting question--for Catholics, any marriage inside or outside the church is sacramental (if there are no impediments) if it is between two baptized persons, as baptized persons have the capability to enact the sacrament on each other.  But in orthodox theology and in the Eastern Catholic rites as well, the marriages are considered to be something in which the priest is the conduit for the graces of the sacrament the same way he is the conduit through which the bread and wine are sacramentally transformed.

as far as how that translates into orthodox recognizing civil marriages, I'd have to look into what their theological position is on that, but if they do recognize civil marriages as valid sacramentally without a priest, then it would seem they'd be agreeing with the western view.  perhaps they simply recognize such a thing as a civil non-sacramental marriage as valid?  this would be the case within Catholic theology for civil marriages between unbaptized persons--they are valid natural marriages but they are not 'sacramental'.

[Anastasia]

35 minutes ago, Aloysius said:

perhaps they simply recognize such a thing as a civil non-sacramental marriage as valid?  this would be the case within Catholic theology for civil marriages between unbaptized persons--they are valid natural marriages but they are not 'sacramental'.

Yes, although Orthodox would put it as simply "a marriage". A civil marriage is "a marriage" and a sacramental marriage is "a marriage blessed by God", something like that. I mean we do not use "valid", "licit" etc., we only have "real" or "true" category. For example, according to the Eastern Orthodox Church the Roman Catholic Church has "true or real sacraments", not "valid".

A different way of thinking. This is why I could not understand why the author of the topic was in doubt to go or not to go if the marriage is true (unlike homosexual "marriage").

Edited July 30, 2020 by Anastasia

[Lilllabettt]

On 7/28/2020 at 9:11 PM, elizabeth09 said:

I say go.  If you feel like talking to a priest about this, this questions are importing.  I have a cousin, who was married this past October, and were living together, and I still 

Your comparison doesn't work. It's good that your cousin solemnized the relationship, making "honest" people of each other. Their wedding is presumed valid and any devout Christian could celebrate and be glad it happened.

Trying, as a Christian, to celebrate an invalid marriage, is not the same thing.

And that itself is in a different category than trying to celebrate a marriage between gay people, which will never ever be valid. 

Sorry but I just hate when people do these comparisons (would you go to the wedding of a couple that contracepts, or is getting married at the beach?) when in terms of moral discernment it's apples and oranges.

The charitable thing in this case would be to presume, if it is reasonably possible even if unlikely, that the couple sought and received a dispensation. 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Lilllabettt

[adoro.te.devote]

On 7/28/2020 at 12:30 PM, Kateri89 said:

I work in a small office of about 10 people and one of my coworkers recently eloped with her fiancé.  She is a lapsed Catholic and it wasn’t a sacramental wedding.  Well my coworkers want to throw her a mini bridal shower now after the fact because we didn’t know she was planning to elope.  

The question is, do I go to the shower? If I don’t go, I won’t lie as to why I’m not going but I’m also thinking it would create tension in the workplace.  If I do go, does it make me an accessory to sin as though I’m celebrating a civil, non-sacramental union?  Before the elopement she was planning on a civil ceremony so I sent her a video on why marriage is a sacrament but I have no idea if she watched it.  Does that mean that I did my part and my conscience can be clear about going to the shower? Or does it still give a wrong impression to my other coworkers?  I’m not sure what to do so I appreciate any advice.

Hi, personally I wouldn't feel comfortable going because it's an invalid marriage if a non Catholic marries outside the Church. I feel like participating would be like a lie, acting there is a marriage, when there isn't. I know it's really hard to talk to people about this topic... I've been in this situation. It's not easy. I feel like when we go to these things, it could be confusing to non Catholics and it's giving an impression of the existence of a marriage that isn't there 

[Aloysius]

Where are ppl getting the idea that this marriage is invalid?  Canon law would presume it valid (sacramental if they were both baptized, non-sacramental but still a natural marriage if they were not both baptized) unless there was some impediment.  It is illicit, sure, but not invalid.  a priest is not necessary for a marriage to be sacramental, just two baptized people.

[adoro.te.devote]

On 7/28/2020 at 4:33 PM, Anastasia said:

I do not know about the Catholic Church but the Eastern Orthodox Church considered civil registered marriages as fully valid - even in a case if it is a marriage of the Orthodox (who, for some reason, are unable to do a sacramental wedding). In a case of your coworker, it would be far worse if she did a sacramental marriage without believing.
So, as an Orthodox I cannot see any problem with attending a bridal shower but one - namely that the person is married already so the bridal shower (even mini) seems to be quite meaningless.

For Catholics, having a civil marriage is invalid if one is Catholic (otherwise, it is valid). Of course, if a Catholic has a Sacramental marriage, they actually need to prepare and be in a state of grace, otherwise they are committing sacrilege in receiving the Sacrament. This is up to the priest to work out with the couple though. If a Catholic marries a non Catholic, there needs to be special permission and the non Catholic wouldn't have Communion of course.. sometimes people just do a wedding without the Mass but the Liturgy of the Word only, from what I understand. We can attend non Catholic weddings if neither person getting married is Catholic (practicing or not). 

I didn't realize that Orthodox permit civil weddings for Orthodox couples.. I heard the reverse, but I wouldn't know of course!

1 minute ago, Aloysius said:

Where are ppl getting the idea that this marriage is invalid?  Canon law would presume it valid (sacramental if they were both baptized, non-sacramental but still a natural marriage if they were not both baptized) unless there was some impediment.  It is illicit, sure, but not invalid.  a priest is not necessary for a marriage to be sacramental, just two baptized people.

the Church needs to witness it for it to be valid.. it's a disciplinary law in the Church. Maybe this could help: it deals with another question, but your question is answered in the first paragraph  https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/01/28/does-a-catholic-wedding-have-to-be-held-in-a-catholic-church/

On 7/29/2020 at 4:13 AM, Kateri89 said:

I sort of tried that and it didn’t work.  I had travelled recently via airplane and was self-quarantining for a couple of weeks and said I couldn’t go for that reason which was entirely true.  Then they told me that the quarantine is only 10 days, not 14 so I can go.

I think I’ll end up going, but I have an obligation at some point in the future to discuss the importance of the sacramental aspect of the marriage.  I don’t know, I’ll figure it out I guess.  I appreciate everyone’s input!

That’s basically where my mind is at.  I feel like if I don’t go, it won’t be very likely to get her to ever consider practicing her faith again if she thinks that Catholics are always judgmental.

I did try to get out of going with a separate excuse which was that I was quarantining due to recent air travel.  It was 100% true but they said the quarantine for that is 10 days, not 14 so I’d be able to go which meant that excuse backfired.

I see what you mean about possibly making Catholics look judgemental... personally, I was faced with this situation and I had to say no to a friend, and it was really hard. She was actually asking me to participate in the ceremony as well and I had to explain.. ugh. I was worried about causing scandal, like everyone knows I'm Catholic, and I also felt like I'd be lying through my actions. That's just my own thoughts on this of course. I wonder if there is any way to not go but just not really explain, just not be able to go? I mean, are you really close to the coworkers? I know that can sound rude though, I'm not sure how it could be phrased... such a complicated topic!!

I think I read some commentary one time that was saying not to go to invalid weddings, but I forget where this way... 

[Aloysius]

Hmmm, I guess I was resting on canon 1060 that one should presume validity until/unless proven otherwise.  But I guess that the canons do say it's null if there's no canonical form for a Catholic.

I still think it makes sense to presume all marriages valid unless a proper authority has nullified it, though.  Yes, Catholics are required to observe canonical form to get married (I suppose I was wrong to assert that this was just for it to be licit, as the canon specifies validity there).  But unless you're on a canonical tribunal, it's really not up to you to judge the validity of any marriage, and we are supposed to presume validity until/unless proven otherwise (based on canon 1060, if this marriage failed they would still need an annulment to get married to someone else in the church, for instance)

[Anastasia]

48 minutes ago, adoro.te.devote said:

I didn't realize that Orthodox permit civil weddings for Orthodox couples.. I heard the reverse, but I wouldn't know of course!

No, you may of heard correctly. However, as I wrote above, much depends on a circumstance. The Eastern Orthodox Church consists of fifteen autocephalous Churches and each may have a different way of handling various issues. Much depends on a situation in a country. For example, the Russian Orthodox Church could not conduct sacramental marriages for almost a century - or better to say it could but the participants would risk severe prosecution. Even to get a baby baptized would be very risky and this is why it was mostly done in secret, at home. In such a situation the absolute majority of the Orthodox believers (not nominal) would only register their marriages at the civil office. Some of them could probably go to some far away village and marry one day.

Unlike many other countries the Russian Orthodox Church is still not considered to be an "official" marriage celebrant... meaning a couple still must register their marriage at the civil office as well. Generally speaking, a priest will not marry a couple unless they are not registered.

This is why now, when the Church is legal (even too legal) some priests would not marry a couple in the church if they feel that those are nominal Orthodox, that they do not really understand what a sacrament is. To them it would be a profanation. I agree by the way. I can see how in other countries where the Church has the official  to "register" marriages the sacrament may be profaned. If a person is baptized but does not live in the Church, does not in its sacraments and does not believe in the reality of the Body and Blood then in my opinion the sacrament of marriage would be quite meaningless. 

Of course, in the countries where people do not need to "marry twice" like in Russia it is very natural for the Orthodox simply do that in the church even if for them it is only a tradition. I do not know what is the rule in the Serbian or Bulgarian etc Orthodox Church re: civil marriage. Very possibly they would prescribe church marriage to all Orthodox.

One thing is sure though: there is no problem for an Orthodox to attend a civil marriage of another Orthodox. The fact that a couple did not marry in the Church would be a subject for sadness like "so pity you/they could marry in the church" but that would be about it. An invited Orthodoxy would hope that a couple would be married in the church one day. We had many quite old couples in Russia getting married in the church after decades of faithful life in a civil marriage.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Anastasia

[Kateri89]

I appreciate all of the responses.  You’ve certainly given me food for thought.  I’ve decided to go for a couple of reasons.  Firstly, it’s not the wedding itself but a bridal shower (albeit after the wedding).  Secondly, this coworker has been going through a lot lately.  Her mom was diagnosed with stage 4 melanoma right before the original wedding was planned, 3 groomsmen dropped out of the wedding, the ceremony was delayed by a few months, and now the country she was planning to have the wedding in has made very difficult demands of all travelers because of COVID-19.  I feel like she really needs something to buoy her spirits because everything has been going pretty badly for her.

 

My plan is to just be polite and quiet at the shower and then when things settle down for her, figure out a way to suggest having the marriage blessed by a priest if possible.  That’s the best I can come up with at this point.  Thanks for all the answers and especially for the canon law references which I will have to read more thoroughly.

23 hours ago, Norseman82 said:

They may be mistaken or lying - most places are 14 days,unless you can be shown on a local government website that only 10 are required.  Otherwise, don't you have a cat that needs an enema or something that day?  (That's my latest joke excuse).  

Barring that, maybe give a family Bible (Catholic edition) as a gift?

I don’t know, I’ve seen 10 days and 14 days.  
 

I was thinking of maybe gifting her Fulton Sheen’s “Three to get Married”.  I doubt she would read it though.  I have a suspicion that she didn’t watch the short video I sent her about why marriage is a sacrament but oh well.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Kateri89