Jesus is my Husband but... getting opposition

[heather]

Hello, I'm new here. I figured I would post this as a separate thread. 

I tried loving Jesus my own way, as my Husband. When I fell madly in love with Jesus, I met Him in spirit. He knocked and I opened the door. 

After some time, I began having dreams telling me not to and this was not Jesus but the enemy. I had so much opposition to loving Him as a husband but I held on until I had to let go after I had a very serious spiritual chastisement happen to me. 

As a Christian Mystic of sorts, I was convinced this divine love was ok but afterwards, there's a feeling that relating to Him this way is of the flesh and I must let go of  the old man, even though it's not lust-driven but true love. 

Now I don't know Who is Who because after I reconnected with God again as lover of my soul, another God voice came and told me not to.  And since then I have seen the demonic realm as well as the good times with Him. 

 Sooooo.... Who is Who? I'm not crazy. These are supernatural experiences. But there is only ONE true God.

Jesus will spit the lukewarm out of His mouth, but to be on fire for Him can be heartbreaking, when doubt enters the picture... and if you are sane, it will.

For anyone with romantic love for Jesus, have you had any opposition or was it only me?

Heather

[gloriana35]

There certainly are erotic elements to the writings of some great mystics, such as Teresa of Avila - and you'll remember that she constantly was aware that unusual experiences can be distractions. (She was every bit as practical as romantic.) Some of what Teresa described as demonic might be called by other names today, with modern psychology.

It can be very difficult to find spiritual direction, but I hope you can find someone with a true gift for frankness and discernment. Those who are very sensitive can have manifestations of their own inner struggles - anger, envy, self-absorption, depression, anxiety - which they can mistake for diabolical intervention.

I hope you can find a fine spiritual director, because you clearly need sound guidance. In the meantime, stay with an horarium - the banality of orthopraxy, in which you say the Offices, watch a streaming Eucharist (I assume you are on lockdown) and the like. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

I second what @gloriana35 said...you really need to talk to a good spiritual director in person. Personal spirituality questions like this one are much too complex to be discussed in a helpful way with strangers on a public internet forum. 

In terms of finding someone to talk to, I'd look for a seasoned priest or religious/consecrated person who has a strong theological background and a lot of common sense--and not necessarily someone who seems the most "holy" or "mystical" (basically echoing what St. Teresa of Avila said about finding an SD.) 

[Anastasia]

2 hours ago, heather said:

I tried loving Jesus my own way, as my Husband. When I fell madly in love with Jesus, I met Him in spirit

Something concerns me here. Usually the very strong feeling for Our Lord are initiated by an experience He grants, not vice versa. Or better to say the way of relating to His is His gift.

I am also a bit vary of a term "husband" you apply to the Lord. He is the Bridegroom of our souls. I know that St Teresa of Avila on a number of occasions use the word "spouse" yet it felt differently.

There is an almost bullet-proof way to discern if the mystical experiences have a diabolical source or from own psyche (or both) or from God. If as their outcome a person  sees herself an unworthy, unclean before God and longs to be purified - all this without and depression though, if her humility increases then the experience may be from God. The increased pride is definitely a sign of the Devil's work. But a person herself often cannot see it; there is such a thing as "a false humility" as well.

That's said I am in full agreement with the previous answers, that such questions do are not asked on the forum. Firstly, they touch an extremely private area; second, it is impossible to discern without "feeling" a person. You need to see some priest who is in touch with the mystical tradition or at least has a very good common sense. Based on my own experience, a very traditional ("old school") Roman Catholic priest would be the best.

[Nunsuch]

Keep in mind that the responses you are getting here are from practicing Catholics. But you apparently are not Catholic. So it's unclear why you are posting here. Are you part of any religious denomination? Do you attend a church regularly (or did you before Covid)? Are you thinking of becoming Catholic? If you are thinking of becoming Catholic, you really need to get in touch with a priest as soon as you can, even if it is only by phone at this point. He can start to provide guidance, or perhaps direct you to someone else he feels is better suited to do so. 

[GraceUk]

Have you been reading or watching any films that have made you feel this way. What started it off as you dont seem to be a member of a church. I'd be very wary indeed of somebody who claimed to have mystical experiences. You certainly need to talk this over with somebody qualified to advise you.

Edited November 1, 2020 by GraceUk
Spelling mistake and clarification

[gloriana35]

17 hours ago, Anastasia said:

There is an almost bullet-proof way to discern if the mystical experiences have a diabolical source or from own psyche (or both) or from God. If as their outcome a person  sees herself an unworthy, unclean before God and longs to be purified - all this without and depression though, if her humility increases then the experience may be from God. The increased pride is definitely a sign of the Devil's work. But a person herself often cannot see it; there is such a thing as "a false humility" as well.

Anastasia makes an important point. May I add that humility is truth - not a sense of self-hatred. (I am not suggesting Anastasia does not know this! But I have no idea of your religious background. Many of us here have decades of religious devotion and, in many cases, vowed life.) There can be an element of pride in believing demons cause problems... as if one were so special and important that the devil himself would try to attack or thwart one. As we said earlier, you need a truly qualified director. 

[adoro.te.devote]

Hi Heather,

At the risk of sounding repetitious, I would echo what others here have said - it is very important to speak to someone like a spiritual director who is knowledgeable in mystical theology. I can recommend priests from the Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP) as being very knowledgeable and orthodox in doctrine. Some people here who have read about the interior life could give advice perhaps, but it would always be general advice - not particular for your situation, which needs to be discerned with a director.. does this make sense? We cannot know your soul especially speaking online like this, and most of us are ordinary lay people here  

If you are unable to speak to anyone right now and this is really causing you anxiety... I know it would be discouraging if this is all that we say, and no one offers any advice... so I'll try to give a few of thoughts..

I agree with others here that communications from God tend to increase humility. St Padre Pio said that after a communication from God, namely: AFTER, the soul would be filled with peace. 

By humility, I don't mean that we are constantly aware of our sinfulness and weeping over our sins. God can give this, but we wouldn't be able to take it if this is all that happened to us spiritually. Sometimes He gives consolation to encourage us, and a sense of His love, and the soul is moved to love Him back. 

In this, the approach of faith is the best, rather than relying so much on feelings and trying to sort them out. Typically the desire to love Jesus as a Spouse is accompanied by a desire to promise/vow Him chastity (which is a very serious step that needs to be discerned with a director as well), and to love Him more in an exclusive, total way. Often a soul would decide to live celibately and have Jesus as their only love. Some married Saints also had a spousal love for Jesus, because each soul is like a bride of Christ, spiritually. (Some are just called to this in a more direct, or vocational way). In any case, such a call would be accompanied by a greater desire to love God. 

I dont think we need to worry excessively if this call is from God or not. If it is a desire to love Him more, - well this is something that God wishes for us too! trust me His longing for us is way stronger than any of our longing for Him. 

Some things we need to understand though is that this union is spiritual. I'm sure you know this. Because we are fallen human beings on earth, sometimes our concupiscence (the part that moves us towards sin) gets a bit in the way, and a soul can have unwanted thoughts or even feelings that are not very pure. Even St Teresa of Avila spoke of this, though it did not happen to her. But it is very common. If this happens, we need to just distance ourselves from the temptation, say no to it, and keep our souls in peace. Sin is in the will, not in experiencing a temptation. 

Over the spiritual life, our relationship with Jesus becomes more purified, more chaste, but also more loving, intense and personal. It becomes BOTH of those things - more pure, and more intense. Often people tend to think that "spiritual" is somehow against our human nature, something abstract, hazy, philosophical. But Our Lord has a Body and took on our same nature. What we get purified from, are the passions. But we still have a heart to love God with  our growth in purity allows us to love God more, not less.

What I wrote here are just some thoughts on the topic of loving Jesus in a spousal way. They might apply to you, or not. I don't know and I tried not to give very personal advice. I can't know if it is Jesus who is communicating with you, and I doubt anyone else in this forum would know. 

If you are unable to speak to any priest about this, (and I notice you are not Catholic, but perhaps you are interested in Catholic spirituality?) - I would recommend to just surrender yourself to God's holy will, and ask that if it is from Him, that He would draw you deeper into it, and if not, that He would remove it from you and give you peace. Try to seek His will alone and seek detachment from your own desires or feelings. I'm sure if we sincerely seek Jesus' will, He would help us, because He is merciful and wants our salvation

I'm sorry for such a gigantic post! 

(Just as a final thought as I re-read your post again)

In your post, you were speaking of spiritual vs carnal love. It is easy to think that anything that involves our feelings/human nature is "carnal". But like i wrote above, Jesus has a Body. Our faith is incarnational. If you saw Jesus in front of you right now, wouldn't you want to be close to Him, if He gave you an embrace, would you think that this is not spiritual? Of course not!  

Carnal "love" is not the one that involves our human nature in any way, but when it is lust driven. In fact, this is no longer love. As we detach from our passions and concupiscence, our love becomes purified, because let's be clear: for most of us, it's going to be mixed at the beginning. The important thing is to seek purification, rather than consenting to any lack of purity, but at the same time, not to reject what is real and spiritual in the process. If we simply reject our love for God because something in it still needs purification, we are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, to use that expression. It is of course, important to seek perfect purity and not to accept or consent to anything that is not worthy of God. But if we get accidental thoughts or feelings, we aren't at fault if we do not consent. 

Does this help at all, and is this what you are speaking of? Or perhaps you mean something else?

[adoro.te.devote]

Perhaps God wants you to purify your love for Him, or perhaps you are getting confused that your love is not pure enough because it involves emotions - I honestly wouldn't know. This would take more discernment, and not online. Instead of trying to sort through your feelings and seeking private revelations, I would recommend just seeking interior peace in faith and seeking purity. It is not wrong in itself to want Jesus to be one's spouse, if understood correctly. If the feelings are too earthly, God might purify them into what He wants. But feeling love for Jesus, wanting to express this love for Him and wanting it to be personal and heartfelt, that is not in itself wrong.

Maybe it could help you discern to think of what it means to you to say that Jesus is your Spouse. What do you mean by this? Do you mean a desire to be close to Him, and/or to have no other love in your life, to love Him exclusively? Those are all good things. When you come closer to Jesus in this way, what happens (you don't need to tell us, these are just questions to ask yourself), what effect does it have on you spiritually, what happens in your spiritual life afterwards? After the experience, is your soul in peace, even if later on your start getting fears and doubts? Does this make you want to love God more in general and seek virtue? (this part is perhaps more noticeable over time, often at first God just tries to draw us to Himself through sensible consolation, and the hard work comes later). But looking at the effect and what this does for you spiritually, is part of discernment

It's often very hard to see all this about ourselves... which is why a spiritual director is so helpful. But if you are unable to speak to anyone right now, maybe thinking of these questions could help a little?

[adoro.te.devote]

By the way.. here is a great book by a priest who talks about the call to be espoused to Jesus. (In the context of vocations). He lists various signs of a call and personally I found this book very helpful! https://www.vocationcentre.org.au/systems/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Lord-You-Want-Me-All-of-Me-2.pdf

Typically, a sense of spiritual joy/peace is a good sign :) 

[Feankie]

On 11/1/2020 at 1:41 PM, heather said:

As a Christian Mystic of sorts, I was convinced this divine love was ok but afterwards, there's a feeling that relating to Him this way is of the flesh and I must let go of  the old man,

How would you define yourself as a Christian Mystic?  What kind of signposts do you use to come to that conclusion?  What do you mean by "I must let go of the old man"?  Are you speaking of Jesus as being the "old man", or are you referring to Ephesians 4:22-24?  As was suggested by other posters, you need a good, theologically solid "spiritual friend" to walk with you.  IMHO since you are not Catholic, suggesting a priest to you is not helpful;  you could not relate to him nor he to you. There are spiritual directors or spiritual friends (lots of different terminology is often used) in other denominations or even churches that are non-denominational.  As a SD myself, I sense something deeper going on here and would urge you to contact someone you can trust, who is trained, and who you can relate to.

Since you say you are non-denominational, why did you wander over to Vocation Station? Where would you put yourself on the "denominational sliding scale"? That might give you a hint as to the feelings you are having.  Calvanist?  Methodist? Unitarian? Evangelical Free? Lutheran?  Anglican" etc.    

But again, please see someone who can help you sort this out.  A forum on the internet is not the place to do it. 

[Sister_Laurel]

All of the comments regarding spiritual direction are good and should be listened to. That said, please know your desire to love and be loved is fundamental and to be honored, but as in all things spiritual, we must allow God to take the lead and define the nature of the relationship God determines is best for us. We are called to respond, not to initiate. Ordinarily, nuptial relationships with God take time to develop, and while they are well known in mystical literature, neither are they common. Even so, again, God defines the nature of the relationship and when he gives himself in this way there is no doubt that he has done so.

As someone who does direction and has a nuptial relationship with Christ, several things give me pause. These include words like "romantic" (loving and being loved by God is wonderful but it is not "romantic love"), or "husband" (a this-worldly term referring to an equality with one's wife and pointing to a union where two become one flesh, is something which does not fit a spousal relationship with God). Whether you decide to speak to a priest (any good parish priest can help point you to someone doing direction since most priests are not trained in this), a religious/consecrated person, or a spiritual director in your own tradition, at the very least you need someone to talk to who prays regularly and knows the ins and outs of spiritual experience and especially the fruit of prayer.

In the meantime, I would suggest you let go of your anxiety and conflict and simply pray to God to show you the way he loves you and desires you to love him. One thing for sure, it will not be exclusive or set you apart from a deep love for others.

Edited November 3, 2020 by SRLAUREL

[adoro.te.devote]

On 11/1/2020 at 3:26 PM, gloriana35 said:

There certainly are erotic elements to the writings of some great mystics, such as Teresa of Avila - and you'll remember that she constantly was aware that unusual experiences can be distractions. (She was every bit as practical as romantic.) Some of what Teresa described as demonic might be called by other names today, with modern psychology.

It can be very difficult to find spiritual direction, but I hope you can find someone with a true gift for frankness and discernment. Those who are very sensitive can have manifestations of their own inner struggles - anger, envy, self-absorption, depression, anxiety - which they can mistake for diabolical intervention.

I hope you can find a fine spiritual director, because you clearly need sound guidance. In the meantime, stay with an horarium - the banality of orthopraxy, in which you say the Offices, watch a streaming Eucharist (I assume you are on lockdown) and the like. 

I just wanted to comment on something quickly, I very much disagree that there are "erotic elements" to the writings of the mystics like St Teresa of Avila. She wrote of unwanted impure feelings happening during prayer but she was writing to another person and clarified that this never happened to her. (and if it had, it wouldn't be a sin unless it's consented to, and she gave really good advice. I think it's in her letters somewhere, if I'm remembering the source and not mixing it up with St John of the Cross). 

St Teresa and others use spousal language because that is the most intense human imagery that we can come up with to describe something as powerful as union with God. This doesn't mean there is anything "erotic" in it either in intent, or experience, or meaning of the text. 

As a little side point, I studied art history and I came across Bernini's statue of the Ecstasy of St Teresa - and people sometimes make the point that it looks "erotic", and that always upset me, lol. I feel like our culture has sexualized everything, so I'm not blaming anyone for making that association (I grew up in the same culture, after all), but I disagree with it. 

1 hour ago, SRLAUREL said:

All of the comments regarding spiritual direction are good and should be listened to. That said, please know your desire to love and be loved is fundamental and to be honored, but as in all things spiritual, we must allow God to take the lead and define the nature of the relationship God determines is best for us. We are called to respond, not to initiate. Ordinarily, nuptial relationships with God take time to develop, and while they are well known in mystical literature, neither are they common. Even so, again, God defines the nature of the relationship and when he gives himself in this way there is no doubt that he has done so.

As someone who does direction and has a nuptial relationship with Christ, several things give me pause. These include words like "romantic" (loving and being loved by God is wonderful but it is not "romantic love"), or "husband" (a this-worldly term referring to an equality with one's wife and pointing to a union where two become one flesh, is something which does not fit a spousal relationship with God). Whether you decide to speak to a priest (any good parish priest can help point you to someone doing direction since most priests are not trained in this), a religious/consecrated person, or a spiritual director in your own tradition, at the very least you need someone to talk to who prays regularly and knows the ins and outs of spiritual experience and especially the fruit of prayer.

In the meantime, I would suggest you let go of your anxiety and conflict and simply pray to God to show you the way he loves you and desires you to love him. One thing for sure, it will not be exclusive or set you apart from a deep love for others.

These are very good points! To the OP - perhaps you didn't know which word to use when you wrote the word "romantic", - I think spousal would be a more appropriate description as well, and it would be good if you helped us understand what you meant, if you would like to

Edited November 3, 2020 by adoro.te.devote

[Anastasia]

19 minutes ago, adoro.te.devote said:

"erotic elements"

Eros is not something dirty. It is a desire; being focused on God it is holy. I recalled an excellent, excellent Lent message of Pope Benedict where he discourses on "eros" and "agape":

"The term agape, which appears many times in the New Testament, indicates the self-giving love of one who looks exclusively for the good of the other. The word eros, on the other hand, denotes the love of one who desires to possess what he or she lacks and yearns for union with the beloved. 
(...)

Dear brothers and sisters, let us look at Christ pierced on the Cross! He is the unsurpassing revelation of God's love, a love in which eros and agape, far from being opposed, enlighten each other. On the Cross, it is God himself who begs the love of his creature: He is thirsty for the love of every one of us. The Apostle Thomas recognized Jesus as "Lord and God" when he put his hand into the wound of his side."

http://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20061121_lent-2007.html

Edited November 3, 2020 by Anastasia

[adoro.te.devote]

2 hours ago, Anastasia said:

Eros is not something dirty. It is a desire; being focused on God it is holy. I recalled an excellent, excellent Lent message of Pope Benedict where he discourses on "eros" and "agape":

"The term agape, which appears many times in the New Testament, indicates the self-giving love of one who looks exclusively for the good of the other. The word eros, on the other hand, denotes the love of one who desires to possess what he or she lacks and yearns for union with the beloved. 
(...)

Dear brothers and sisters, let us look at Christ pierced on the Cross! He is the unsurpassing revelation of God's love, a love in which eros and agape, far from being opposed, enlighten each other. On the Cross, it is God himself who begs the love of his creature: He is thirsty for the love of every one of us. The Apostle Thomas recognized Jesus as "Lord and God" when he put his hand into the wound of his side."

http://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20061121_lent-2007.html

That's interesting! (and enlightening) I agree about "eros" after reading the meaning of it. Thanks for sharing. I think what alarmed me was the adaptation of the word into "erotic" which for me at least means something more carnal... I think I prefer "spousal" if we are using English - rather than Greek - terms

Edited November 3, 2020 by adoro.te.devote